Hoping some current students or recent graduates can chime in here. Also would love to hear from any current or aspiring IMer's! So, I'm looking to get into IM post-MBA. I'm working on my CFA (Level II Candidate sitting in June), and will be attending either NYU or Columbia (if admitted - fingers crossed!). I currently work in Sales & Trading (Fixed Income). I don't mind taking a 2-3 year route to get into the industry, but I'd like to have a good idea of common/feasible paths. Aside from the obvious direct transition into a junior PM or equivalent role, what do you believe are the most common feeders into the IM industry? Research comes to mind first and foremost - but what about IBanking? Are there specific IB positions that are looked on more favorably? My main concern is that recruiting is going to come quickly my first semester, and I hear nightmare stories about IB recruiting. Can I reasonably expect to be able to interview for Research (Equities or FI), IB, AND IM roles? I want to hit the ground running, as I think landing a great internship will really help me get where I want to be. I'm sure there's lots of questions I'm forgetting, but I hope someone can lend some valuable insight into the industry - I don't see it talked about here much. Thanks in advance,

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Best Route to Investment Management?

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britguy

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31 Mar 2010, 11:23

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I think you guys are on the same page, Ginetta said ER was difficult to get into but not more so than any other route to buy-side.

Anyway ER research is my plan so here's to hoping it's achievable! Now back to my CFA books...

shana22

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31 Mar 2010, 12:32

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Ginetta

I will give a warning, if you are serious about IM, you need to be sure you are passionate. It is an up or out industry, and if you dont live and breathe the markets, you wont make it. The people who end up being successful are those who bought stocks when they were 12 with their milk money. If you arent already running a stock portfolio (even a mock one), I would suggest that you reflect and see if you really are that into it. Although its really cool telling people you are an analyst on a hedge fund (especially the ladies! *wink wink*), in the end its still just a job and like everything else if you arent passionate about it you will get bored and as cut throat as the industry is - its probably not going to work out.

I just want to echo this for those of you interested in getting into ER. I am not. However, I work for a large buy side firm and I know that a demonstrated passion for researching stocks is at the top of their recruiting "must-have" list. I don't think you need to have been buying stocks at age 12, but I think you need to have it now. If you don't, you should probably consider another career path.

Ginetta

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01 Apr 2010, 12:17

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cbreeze

Ginetta, I'd like to know what kind of working experience you've had in IM?

1 years structured fin, 3+ years on long/short HF in NYC 3 people (2 PMs and me) $500mil. Part of larger asset manager with $13B AUM.

I didnt say that it is not the "natural route", I said: "Yes, banking is a direct feeder into IM, but usually for the industry vertical you were working in (industrials, tech etc). Research is as well but to a lesser extent."

Perhaps I should have been more specific. If you want to go work at a mutual fund at Fidelity IM, ER is fine. If you want to work on more exotic stuff, HFs and the like IM, banking is better. I am not talking boutique banking, I mean the firms that would have qualified as the BBs back in the day, or if it is a boutique, Laz etc. I am just stating my experiences, if you disagree, cool.

My friends from banking went to SAC, Owl Creek and Och Ziff. The ER analysts I worked with are still in ER. When we hired at my company we looked specifically for banking analysts coming out of their rotation in the industry vertical we were hiring for. We did not look at ER people for the reasons I mentioned originally. Im not trying to bag on anyones choice of careers here, and maybe the SF Bay is completely different than NYC - who knows.

To those on the fence, if you are wondering what path you should follow, go to linkedin, type a place you would like to work, and see the type of background their employees have.

cougarblue

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01 Apr 2010, 19:50

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Ginetta

cbreeze

Ginetta, I'd like to know what kind of working experience you've had in IM?

I don't think HFs look at Ibanking analysts (pre-MBA) and Associates/VPs (post-MBA) the same way. You're obviously citing pre-MBA examples, but post-MBA ibankers are a different story. Basically, I think if you want to get into a HF or something "exotic" post-MBA (which is what everyone here is or will be) then sell-side ER, or traditional buyside IM is the best route to pursue.

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01 Apr 2010, 20:07

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wiseguyMBA

britguy

networking!

i'm doing the cfa to give me the academic knowledge I need for future IM. the MBA is a mechanism for the career change because the CFA isn't enough. that said, my career change is more radical - I'm coming from engineering and I've never been anywhere near a financial statement and I have no contacts in the finance universe.

good luck!

We're in the same boat, mate. !!! I'm from engg too, but have been managing a fund for 6 yrs now.
However, after getting my admission, I've been literally daydreaming and having too much fun, and started my CFA L1 prep only yday, for June.

My aim is to break into research, and then into buy-side. Though ginetta's write-up suggests that would be a tough break-in.
Thanks a lot for the info Ginetta. But I'm gonna ask a dumb question...when you say networking, you meant at B-school? I'm trying to find ppl at Kellogg (where I'm matriculating), in IM, but no luck so far. I'm hearing that recruiting in IM has been very weak so far.

If you still have a choice of other top b-school opportunities (Wharton, CBS, Booth and maybe NYU and even Cornell) I would think hard before going to Kellogg for strictly IM. I think you can make a good argument that Kellogg is at least comparable to those similarly ranked schools for every other field, except for IM and HFs. But if you have no choice in the matter, you will still be able to get sell-side exposure and perhaps network into some buyside opportunities, it'll just require more legwork on your part...which isn't necessarily a terrible thing, but makes life a little more difficult.

Ginetta

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01 Apr 2010, 20:29

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cougarblue

Despite my specific examples which did pertain to pre-mba, 75% of the PMs at the shop I was at had MBAs, and were in banking, either pre or post school. Anyway like I said before, i'm only sharing my experiences and talking about what I saw more of. You think ER is better, I think banking is better - in the end, thats probably the smallest part of the equation and the actual person matters the most.

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06 Apr 2010, 08:48

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Ginetta

cougarblue

Ginetta,

Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by "banking"? And why exactly this kind of experience would be advantageous for someone moving into investment management? I'm going back to school for my MBA with the intention to pursue an "investment banking" job, but my long-term goal is as an analyst/pm at an asset manager. My impression of associate programs at investment banks is that you can go into different areas--like M&A, research, sales, trading, etc.--but to be honest it's pretty difficult to discern the differences between some of these areas. For example, there are different types of "traders" right? You can have prop traders, but then again aren't people who are basically market-making also called traders? Basically, I'd just like to know what position qualifies as "banking" in your mind (I'm guessing M&A but I don't even really know what that job entails)?

3underscore

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06 Apr 2010, 09:05

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You will not rotate like you suggest at all. In most banks, once you are in you won't rotate at all in some business lines like Sales & Trading (Deutsche is the exception here).

You can apply to IB (Financial Institutions, M&A - that stuff), Sales & Trading, other stuff (Risk, Finance), Research (Fixed Income, Equities). That is your lot, and your job comes from the relationships you develop over the summer. Typically you will be on your way in to one exact spot.

Ginetta is talking about IB. There is a wide appreciation for the art of selling people useless tat through powerpoint presentations, understanding how to value a firm and then further understanding how to tell someone it is worth more and succeed in selling them on it. Pricing merger qualities, picking out acquisition targets - that is the stuff the funds like.

From speaking with Ginetta, his experience is that this is the main feed - research guys sometimes move, but they have to be very respected, in the right field and it isn't the main path. Trading similar - you can trade flow. So can a room full of trained monkeys. If you end up being established in the right form of Prop trading, maybe a HF will come in for you (this path is tricky as Prop traders are small in number, technically focused folk - there is also a big capital, credit line vs compensation tradeoff for the trader).

The difference:

IB - doing "Deals". The stuff in B and C in the Wall Street Journal with stuff starting with $bn.

Traders - buying, selling, holding. So many types of things - credit, equities, debt, FX. So many strategies - Correlation, stat arb, flow, merger arb, momentum. So many products - Options, Debt, futures, forwards, CDS. You get a feel for products that interest you.

Sales - getting the deals for the traders to sell stuff, bringing in business

Research - writing about target prices. Valuation of companies, writing, allegedly generating business. talking on CNBC. Not in cahoots with the Traders, as per Spitzer (at least not formally).

Strategists - work sort of nearer the desk analyzing the market as a whole and creating interesting viewpoints, metrics and feeding the desk first, then potentially clients.

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06 Apr 2010, 13:31

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3underscore

Great thank you.

yuskay

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07 Apr 2010, 22:57

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3underscore

IB - doing "Deals". The stuff in B and C in the Wall Street Journal with stuff starting with $bn.

Traders - buying, selling, holding. So many types of things - credit, equities, debt, FX. So many strategies - Correlation, stat arb, flow, merger arb, momentum. So many products - Options, Debt, futures, forwards, CDS. You get a feel for products that interest you.

Sales - getting the deals for the traders to sell stuff, bringing in business

Research - writing about target prices. Valuation of companies, writing, allegedly generating business. talking on CNBC. Not in cahoots with the Traders, as per Spitzer (at least not formally).

Strategists - work sort of nearer the desk analyzing the market as a whole and creating interesting viewpoints, metrics and feeding the desk first, then potentially clients.

Where do bankers in Capital Markets fall into?

msbroker

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08 Apr 2010, 07:27

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Great topic guys...I too am interested in making this move post-mba. I think Ginetta is right with regards to making a move to HF pre-MBA. Banking analysts definitely have an advantage over any other occupation in terms of getting a foot in the door at various HFs. However, I would disagree with the notion that one should take an associate role in IB in order to eventually move over to IM...the reason being, while it is generally accepted that IB analysts will most likely use their analyst experience as a springboard to other careers (PE, HF, VC, F500) an associate needs to show that he is a bit more committed to IB. I would very much doubt that if you claimed in a recruiting interview that you would like to eventually move to the buyside in a couple years that an IB group would take you.

I think that for MBA recruiting, if you do not have prior asset management experience you should look for traditional buyside shops (Fidelity, PIMCO, Capital Group, Blackrock, BB asset management). I would say Research would come next, given that I think it makes you think more like a PM and you interact daily with PMs, as opposed to M&A where you are simply trying to justify the highest price possible to get a bigger fee....and then either sales and trading or M&A. Fyi, I think capital markets is kind of a go between s&t and M&A...you don't do in depth modeling analysis like you would in M&A, but you also don't work as closely with the markets as sales and traders do.

At the end of the day, if you want to be a PM you will make it happen. The asset management universe is so broad that there is no set "path" for people to follow. Look at some leading PMs and study where they came from...There are former bankers who specialize in risk/merger arbritrage (Paulson), former equity research guys (steve eisman at frontpoint), PhD computer scientists (jim simons, ren tech), traders (eddie lampert, stevie cohen), economists (gerstenhaber at argonaut), bulge bracket strategists (barton biggs)..and all have very different strategies...trend following, algorithmic trading, value, growth, distressed, merger arb, etcso all of these are legit ways to get in...you just have to work for it and produce RESULTS, no one cares about your background/degree it you can't make money...very much a meritocracy. I think for us MBA folks we should try to get as close to buyside as possible, but if we don't make it for whatever reason, keep up hope, stay focused, be passionate, and constantly NETWORK. just my 2c.

futurestrategist

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08 Apr 2010, 10:07

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3underscore

I'm most interested in the Strategist role. Can you tell me more details about its job requirements and what kinds of MBAs will help achieve that position?

cougarblue

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08 Apr 2010, 20:59

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msbroker

This is on point. Although, you should note that those traditional buy-side shops you listed are incredibly difficult to get into, even with previous buy-side and/or sell-side experience, e.g. each only takes a few people a year from a pool of candidates across all of the top schools. More often the natural springboard for the career switcher is to go sell-side (research) out of the MBA, and then buy-side later. Out of the dozens of MBA colleagues I've met that are doing IBD (corp fin), not one has said they want to be a PM or do HF after IBD, they all see IBD as a long-term career, or else PE, Corp Dev, VC, Entrepreneurship, etc. as the end-game. However, some that are doing S&T are also interested in IM and buy-side opportunities down the line.

msbroker

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21 Apr 2010, 06:40

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quick question for you guys..in terms of schools which could provide best route to buyside...we all know chicago, columbia, stern, wharton are the big dogs for this. But can anyone share some insight as to other schools that may not be ranked as high, yet are still good options for those that are looking for schools perhaps a tier below these. I'm thinking Ross, Darden, Cornell, Tepper? Also, I've heard kellogg places surprisingly well...anyone know about this?

JBrowntown

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21 Apr 2010, 09:46

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University of Wisconsin - Madison

the address is below (the forum won't let me add the prefix)

bus.wisc.edu/asap/MBA-CFA-Student-Investment-Fund/placement.asp

mbatsoonami

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22 Apr 2010, 17:41

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Love this thread. Thanks for all the tips everyone.

I am choosing between Sloan and Wharton. Have some personal reasons to be in Boston, but am wondering how much this hurts my chance of cracking IM since Wharton has the stronger reputation/network. Coming from Consulting. Thanks!

3underscore

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23 Apr 2010, 07:28

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cougarblue

msbroker

At the end of the day, if you want to be a PM you will make it happen. The asset management universe is so broad that there is no set "path" for people to follow. Look at some leading PMs and study where they came from...There are former bankers who specialize in risk/merger arbritrage (Paulson), former equity research guys (steve eisman at frontpoint), PhD computer scientists (jim simons, ren tech), traders (eddie lampert, stevie cohen), economists (gerstenhaber at argonaut), bulge bracket strategists (barton biggs)..and all have very different strategies...trend following, algorithmic trading, value, growth, distressed, merger arb, etcso all of these are legit ways to get in...you just have to work for it and produce RESULTS, no one cares about your background/degree it you can't make money...very much a meritocracy. I think for us MBA folks we should try to get as close to buyside as possible, but if we don't make it for whatever reason, keep up hope, stay focused, be passionate, and constantly NETWORK. just my 2c.

There is a little bit of a deceptive selection of individuals there, msbroker. To the average MBA student it is a little hard to expect that the route to Investment Management is possible from a multitude of directions if one were to have a couple of tens of millions in seed capital to throw in yourself (Paulson, Cohen and many of those guys did). Similar you can start a firm if someone wants to throw cash at you once you have proven yourself (many of the Tiger Cubs and Soros offshoots for instance).

The question at large is how you get into that position, and how you go about choosing to do it. I would be prepared to bet that a good 80% of people *if* they were multi-millionairres and well paid, would probably find that their dreams of IM are suddenly AWOL.

Finally, the claim that IB firms want everyone to go from Associate to VP is absurd. The firms recruit 100s of IB Associates knowing the nature of attrition and the demands of the job lose well over half - the banks understand the exit opportunities that exist and why people would want them, and how working on deals can become suddenly not what you want to do after 3 years not seeing your girlfriend / wife or kids. They will happily take you on the aim of a three year commitment, just like they do analysts. If you are any good at that point, they will certainly fight to keep you.

In some ways it is the nearest IB people get to working with Option values.

msbroker

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23 Apr 2010, 08:31

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3underscore

cougarblue

msbroker

My intent was not to be deceptive. Are the people I mentioned outliers?? Yes. Absolutely, clearly not everyone in IM is making $4billion a year. I was simply trying to show that relative to other careers, the path to working in IM is not necessarily as straightforward as it is for other careers. Take PE for example, I know that if I wanted to work at blackstone corp pe, I would have gone to a top school, worked at gs or ms m&a, and then either go to HBS or make the direct switch following my analyst stint. Look at top guys in PE, all have similar profiles...whereas look at top money managers, they have much more diverse backgrounds.

I also never meant to convey that ALL associates are expected to work in banking forever. Obviously they have many options available to them, it's just on this thread people seemed to think that since many IB analysts make the transition to IM, that it's the same for associates. It's not. But does that make IB a bad plan B if you don't get a job as an asst PM at Fidelity. Not at all...but for me personally, I know that I'd be happier working with PMs in research, and if that didn't work, I'd be happier in s&t executing trades with PMs, and then if that failed, I would try to work on a PWM team that actively manages client assets, and if I didn't get that, then m&a would make sense.

You're right, a lot of associates change their mind and realize that m&a isn't what they want to do. That is fine for them, but I think most people on this thread already know they don't necessarily want to work on deals, but want to manage money (I think). As I said, the people I mentioned are all outliers, but they are among the best, and I would bet are in the other 20% of the folks you mentioned. Is the average mid cap equity PM at columbia funds going to quit if you gave him $50mm...probably...but if he did, and you worked at the fund...to your point as to how do you get into that job...would you hire the midcap guy from a blackrock fund, or would you hire the research analyst from UBS you took a recomendation from, or maybe you would bring on the guy from deutsche's trading floor who you spoke with this morning and have known for yrs...or...the guy who knows how to work his DCF so as to get the highest inflated price so he can collect the biggest fee (This isn't meant to disparage bankers, they're great folks, just making a point). This is what I mean that there is no really set path, it's more about networking/being as close to the buyside as possible and having something that can somewhat resemble a track record...that is if you aren't lucky enough to get there through the extremely competitive mba recruiting in the IM space. Like ppl discussed, to eventually make it through, you need to display passion for the markets. I would like to think of myself as one of these passionate people, but if I don't make directly out of school, I would make it there some other way....but m&a prob wouldn't be at the top of my list. But that's just me....and to each their own...

JBrowntown

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23 Apr 2010, 08:50

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Thank you msbroker and 3underscore! Now I'm starting to get it!

futurestrategist

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23 Apr 2010, 09:31

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Great posts, especially 3underscore, msbroker, and cougarblue! Could you provide insights about getting into fixed-income research and strategy positions?