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shmegs
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 25 Aug 2007, 14:50
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I love Chicago's flexible curriculum, but it's the slightly "conservative" culture that people have told me that worries me a bit (and the amount of people applying). I'll be talking to some Chicago students soon, so that will help me piece together a picture of Chicago better than what I've read and heard from other school's alums.

As for Stanford, I am surprised to. I'm guessing maybe:

1. Last year almost no GMATClubber got into Stanford, thus no ambassador and no one here to talk about the wonders of Stanford

2. Self Selection: Like Shmegs said, people don't apply because they say they "know they won't get in".

3. It seems like MOST of the people here are from the midwest or east coast, thus they favor the Chicago/Kellogg/HBS/Whartons more. Makes sense, since only roughly 1/6 of the people live west of the Mississippi (rough estimate).

That's good for me, since I want as little competition as possible! :)

BTW, if you guys experience the year round weather out here on the West Coast, you'll be applying to any school you can out here ;)

I don't doubt that the weather in Cali is better than in Boston/Philly/Chicago. Actually I've been rethinking my Chicago app...I'm getting a bit freaked out by the amount of people who may be applying. Since I want to work in consultancy afterwards I may switch to Kellogg for R1 as it places just as well, and I do like their curriculum and facilities. As far as Stanford goes, my uncle got his MBA and he has nothing but positive things to say about the school, its students, and the program in general. His position is that it is the best MBA program in the country (not suprising since he's an alumnus).

I'm surprised by these comments. Chicago certainly holds its own, but to suggest that your odds are better at Kellogg seems unlikely. Kellogg has had a long standing reputation as a top school and has for many many years had 4500+ applicants. Chicago, though they don't release the figures, I believe had less in past years. Although it is likely that Chicago will see at least some kind of spike in applicants given its BW rank -- I can't see it jumping so much that it makes Kellogg a safer bet (in any kind of statistically significant way). To put it differently, Chicago and Kellogg will likely get a similar number of applicants, and although it is possible Chicago may get a marginally higher number, the acceptance rates are not going to differ dramatically.

I can understand tossing Chicago out of the game to put in a more reasonable backup - something with a substanially higher admit % - but to toss it out to replace it with Kellogg will do absolutely nothing (from a statistical perspective) to your odds.

Apply to whatever schools you like most - and certainly consider % rate when you do.
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Rhyme,

I didn't mean to suggest that Kellogg was easier to get into or is a inferior program to Chicago. I just thought that after Chicago's recent rankings and the publicity it generated more people would be applying to Chicago. If that is the case (and I don't know if it is) then I thought that Kellogg would be a better bet in R1. I like both programs equally, each has its own strengths but for my post grad plans (consulting) both schools would be just as good. That being said, I just thought that it may be better to avoid the rush and apply to Kellogg as I would be just as happy to attend it than Chicago.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 25 Aug 2007, 15:29
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Alrite!! things are heating up. Decisions, Indecisions, Decisions. As long as people start switching from Chicago to Kellogg, lesser competition for me.

As for bikini clad women, I think they should have one B-school in Bermuda or Barbados. Other than the occassional tornado, perfect weather, lots of banking jobs, and bikini clad women
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 25 Aug 2007, 20:14
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aviroop
Alrite!! things are heating up. Decisions, Indecisions, Decisions. As long as people start switching from Chicago to Kellogg, lesser competition for me.

As for bikini clad women, I think they should have one B-school in Bermuda or Barbados. Other than the occassional tornado, perfect weather, lots of banking jobs, and bikini clad women
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Barbados outside of the resorts is not the greatest place to be...its actually pretty bad in most spots. Its a lot of sugar cane farms and poor people.

Now the Cayman Islands is where to put in a school since its where so many companies are setting up offshore headquarters and shell companies.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 09:08
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I love Chicago's flexible curriculum, but it's the slightly "conservative" culture that people have told me that worries me a bit (and the amount of people applying). I'll be talking to some Chicago students soon, so that will help me piece together a picture of Chicago better than what I've read and heard from other school's alums.

As for Stanford, I am surprised to. I'm guessing maybe:

1. Last year almost no GMATClubber got into Stanford, thus no ambassador and no one here to talk about the wonders of Stanford

2. Self Selection: Like Shmegs said, people don't apply because they say they "know they won't get in".

3. It seems like MOST of the people here are from the midwest or east coast, thus they favor the Chicago/Kellogg/HBS/Whartons more. Makes sense, since only roughly 1/6 of the people live west of the Mississippi (rough estimate).

That's good for me, since I want as little competition as possible! :)

BTW, if you guys experience the year round weather out here on the West Coast, you'll be applying to any school you can out here ;)

I don't doubt that the weather in Cali is better than in Boston/Philly/Chicago. Actually I've been rethinking my Chicago app...I'm getting a bit freaked out by the amount of people who may be applying. Since I want to work in consultancy afterwards I may switch to Kellogg for R1 as it places just as well, and I do like their curriculum and facilities. As far as Stanford goes, my uncle got his MBA and he has nothing but positive things to say about the school, its students, and the program in general. His position is that it is the best MBA program in the country (not suprising since he's an alumnus).

I'm surprised by these comments. Chicago certainly holds its own, but to suggest that your odds are better at Kellogg seems unlikely. Kellogg has had a long standing reputation as a top school and has for many many years had 4500+ applicants. Chicago, though they don't release the figures, I believe had less in past years. Although it is likely that Chicago will see at least some kind of spike in applicants given its BW rank -- I can't see it jumping so much that it makes Kellogg a safer bet (in any kind of statistically significant way). To put it differently, Chicago and Kellogg will likely get a similar number of applicants, and although it is possible Chicago may get a marginally higher number, the acceptance rates are not going to differ dramatically.

I can understand tossing Chicago out of the game to put in a more reasonable backup - something with a substanially higher admit % - but to toss it out to replace it with Kellogg will do absolutely nothing (from a statistical perspective) to your odds.

Apply to whatever schools you like most - and certainly consider % rate when you do.

Rhyme,

I didn't mean to suggest that Kellogg was easier to get into or is a inferior program to Chicago. I just thought that after Chicago's recent rankings and the publicity it generated more people would be applying to Chicago. If that is the case (and I don't know if it is) then I thought that Kellogg would be a better bet in R1. I like both programs equally, each has its own strengths but for my post grad plans (consulting) both schools would be just as good. That being said, I just thought that it may be better to avoid the rush and apply to Kellogg as I would be just as happy to attend it than Chicago.
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A valid point - all I was trying to say was that Kellogg has (historically) had more apps than Chicago - so while Chicago may equal or beat Kellogg this year in terms of #s, both are going to be similar in terms of acceptance % - and thus, you should just apply wherever you want (either, neither, both)
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 09:12
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I didn't know that...thank you for the info Rhyme. I'll have to rethink my decision.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 09:31
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Based on the 2006 data, both Kellogg and Chicago's acceptance rates were in the low to mid-20's... that's pretty high, isn't it? Is there a reason why their selectivity is so?

that year Kellogg had roughly 4000 applicants. If last year it was 4500, with their yield of roughly 70%, they accept roughly 930 students. So last year's selectivity was 21%. Let's say this year is a hot year, and it goes up to 5000 applicants, the rate is still 18-19%.

That's still a pretty high acceptance rate... any comments on that?
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 09:47
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kryzak
Based on the 2006 data, both Kellogg and Chicago's acceptance rates were in the low to mid-20's... that's pretty high, isn't it? Is there a reason why their selectivity is so?

that year Kellogg had roughly 4000 applicants. If last year it was 4500, with their yield of roughly 70%, they accept roughly 930 students. So last year's selectivity was 21%. Let's say this year is a hot year, and it goes up to 5000 applicants, the rate is still 18-19%.

That's still a pretty high acceptance rate... any comments on that?
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I don't think Kellogg has a 70% yield...I think they are actually less than 60%. They don't have the reputation like Columbia of dinging people who they don't think will attend. As an M7 school its probably a pretty typical backup for a lot of H/S/W applicants, who if they get into one of the top 3 reject their acceptance.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 09:51
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kryzak
Based on the 2006 data, both Kellogg and Chicago's acceptance rates were in the low to mid-20's... that's pretty high, isn't it? Is there a reason why their selectivity is so?

that year Kellogg had roughly 4000 applicants. If last year it was 4500, with their yield of roughly 70%, they accept roughly 930 students. So last year's selectivity was 21%. Let's say this year is a hot year, and it goes up to 5000 applicants, the rate is still 18-19%.

That's still a pretty high acceptance rate... any comments on that?
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You may find this interesting:

https://www.gmatclub.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... engineered

A for an admit % of 20% or so... you might think thats high... I don't.

By comparison...

Wharton is 21%
Harvard about 15%
Michigan 28%
Stanford 10%
MIT 20%
Duke 36%
Columbia 17%
NYU 22%
Cornell 36%
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:20
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river: well, BW said it's 57%, but if you take 4000 applicants for the 2005-2006 season, multiply that by their 24% acceptance rate, you get roughly 960 acceptances... We know Kellogg enrolls about 650 students a year, so the yield is automatically 67.7%

I highly doubt Kellogg's yield is at the same level as schools like UCLA and even Haas (roughly 50%), since it is an M7 school.

rhyme: Interesting link... I'll have to read through that in detail. But what I'm saying is that their acceptance rates are all pretty high, except for Harvard and Stanford. Even Cal's acceptance rate is only 18% for 2006 and 15% for 2007..

I'm wondering, if they say roughly 50% of all applications are "junk" either because of the essays, recommendations or grades/GMAT, that means the acceptance rate for all the top schools are roughly doubled for people like us who are spending time revising and editing our essays over a period of months. If our GMAT/GPA are pretty decent, and our recommenders know to write very specific examples, and we don't bomb our interviews (since supposedly doing well in interviews doesn't change that much), then we probably have a 40% chance of admission to the top 15 schools.

Yes, it's a rough sketch and there are some amazing candidates out there, but in the end, most of each class in all the top 15 schools are probably "normal" over-achievers like ones we find here on GMATClub. Not everyone can be Iraq veterans, Olympic medalists, or Orphanage leaders...

Just a thought.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:28
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kryzak
river: well, BW said it's 57%, but if you take 4000 applicants for the 2005-2006 season, multiply that by their 24% acceptance rate, you get roughly 960 acceptances... We know Kellogg enrolls about 650 students a year, so the yield is automatically 67.7%

I highly doubt Kellogg's yield is at the same level as schools like UCLA and even Haas (roughly 50%), since it is an M7 school.

rhyme: Interesting link... I'll have to read through that in detail. But what I'm saying is that their acceptance rates are all pretty high, except for Harvard and Stanford. Even Cal's acceptance rate is only 18% for 2006 and 15% for 2007..

I'm wondering, if they say roughly 50% of all applications are "junk" either because of the essays, recommendations or grades/GMAT, that means the acceptance rate for all the top schools are roughly doubled for people like us who are spending time revising and editing our essays over a period of months. If our GMAT/GPA are pretty decent, and our recommenders know to write very specific examples, and we don't bomb our interviews (since supposedly doing well in interviews doesn't change that much), then we probably have a 40% chance of admission to the top 15 schools.

Yes, it's a rough sketch and there are some amazing candidates out there, but in the end, most of each class in all the top 15 schools are probably "normal" over-achievers like ones we find here on GMATClub. Not everyone can be Iraq veterans, Olympic medalists, or Orphanage leaders...

Just a thought.
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Kryzak,

I don't think 20% is too high. Aside from H/S most of the top schools have acceptance rates around 20%. I do agree that the acceptance % may be higher for people on this board (for the same reasons you cited) but personally I'm just going with the official stats.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:29
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kryzak
river: well, BW said it's 57%, but if you take 4000 applicants for the 2005-2006 season, multiply that by their 24% acceptance rate, you get roughly 960 acceptances... We know Kellogg enrolls about 650 students a year, so the yield is automatically 67.7%

I highly doubt Kellogg's yield is at the same level as schools like UCLA and even Haas (roughly 50%), since it is an M7 school.

rhyme: Interesting link... I'll have to read through that in detail. But what I'm saying is that their acceptance rates are all pretty high, except for Harvard and Stanford. Even Cal's acceptance rate is only 18% for 2006 and 15% for 2007..

I'm wondering, if they say roughly 50% of all applications are "junk" either because of the essays, recommendations or grades/GMAT, that means the acceptance rate for all the top schools are roughly doubled for people like us who are spending time revising and editing our essays over a period of months. If our GMAT/GPA are pretty decent, and our recommenders know to write very specific examples, and we don't bomb our interviews (since supposedly doing well in interviews doesn't change that much), then we probably have a 40% chance of admission to the top 15 schools.

Yes, it's a rough sketch and there are some amazing candidates out there, but in the end, most of each class in all the top 15 schools are probably "normal" over-achievers like ones we find here on GMATClub. Not everyone can be Iraq veterans, Olympic medalists, or Orphanage leaders...

Just a thought.
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Thank you for just making my day. Serious.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:32
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kryzak
I'm wondering, if they say roughly 50% of all applications are "junk" either because of the essays, recommendations or grades/GMAT, that means the acceptance rate for all the top schools are roughly doubled for people like us who are spending time revising and editing our essays over a period of months. If our GMAT/GPA are pretty decent, and our recommenders know to write very specific examples, and we don't bomb our interviews (since supposedly doing well in interviews doesn't change that much), then we probably have a 40% chance of admission to the top 15 schools.
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That's always what I've wondered....I would think the top schools get tons of "junk" applications from people who really have <1% chance accepting, but just apply because it's Harvard. Maybe, maybe not. But if that's the case, I wonder what the actual chances are for people like us who do put a lot of work into it. Harvards 15% rate sort of deters me from applying, but if it's actually 30% for people who have a decent application, I would consider applying.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:39
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I'm still a little confused on if there are 4299 applicants in 2004 (according to BW), 23% acceptance, why is the yield 57%? 4299 x 0.23 = 989... 625/989 = 63%...

Anyway, rhyme made my day with his analysis last year... quoted for your benefit here:

Quote:
Extrapolating this, and taking the midpoint of each range as our defined % , taking a linear approach to it as well, we get:

640 12%
650 17%
660 20%
670 23%
680 25%
690 26%
700 28%
710 29%
720 31%
730 32%
740 33%
750 35%
760 36%
770 37%
780 ?
790 ?
800 ?

To get to the 780, 790, 800 ranges, we can estimate - looks like the 40% would cross at about 790.

This is by no means scientific, but its interesting.

Based on all this fun stuff, I think that AT WORST, your odds are in the table above. If you buy my premise that yield will vary based on score,

640: 10%
650-690: 22%
700-740: 32%
750-800: 42%

and maybe even higher.

What I love most about these kinds of numbers is that they show exactly what I'd expect and what everyone on this site needs to remember.

GMAT is one important factor, but its only that - a factor.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:46
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Kryzak- I checked Kellogg's statistics on US news ( I am a paid subscriber) and this is what I see for Fall 06 admissions:

Applicants for full time = 4072
Acceptances for full time = 977
Enrolled = 556

giving us an acceptance rate of 24% and yield of 57%. I think you could be counting the 1Y program students (usually around 75) in your number of 625.





kryzak
river: well, BW said it's 57%, but if you take 4000 applicants for the 2005-2006 season, multiply that by their 24% acceptance rate, you get roughly 960 acceptances... We know Kellogg enrolls about 650 students a year, so the yield is automatically 67.7%

I highly doubt Kellogg's yield is at the same level as schools like UCLA and even Haas (roughly 50%), since it is an M7 school.

rhyme: Interesting link... I'll have to read through that in detail. But what I'm saying is that their acceptance rates are all pretty high, except for Harvard and Stanford. Even Cal's acceptance rate is only 18% for 2006 and 15% for 2007..

I'm wondering, if they say roughly 50% of all applications are "junk" either because of the essays, recommendations or grades/GMAT, that means the acceptance rate for all the top schools are roughly doubled for people like us who are spending time revising and editing our essays over a period of months. If our GMAT/GPA are pretty decent, and our recommenders know to write very specific examples, and we don't bomb our interviews (since supposedly doing well in interviews doesn't change that much), then we probably have a 40% chance of admission to the top 15 schools.

Yes, it's a rough sketch and there are some amazing candidates out there, but in the end, most of each class in all the top 15 schools are probably "normal" over-achievers like ones we find here on GMATClub. Not everyone can be Iraq veterans, Olympic medalists, or Orphanage leaders...

Just a thought.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:51
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kryzak
I'm still a little confused on if there are 4299 applicants in 2004 (according to BW), 23% acceptance, why is the yield 57%? 4299 x 0.23 = 989... 625/989 = 63%...

Anyway, rhyme made my day with his analysis last year... quoted for your benefit here:

Quote:
Extrapolating this, and taking the midpoint of each range as our defined % , taking a linear approach to it as well, we get:

640 12%
650 17%
660 20%
670 23%
680 25%
690 26%
700 28%
710 29%
720 31%
730 32%
740 33%
750 35%
760 36%
770 37%
780 ?
790 ?
800 ?

To get to the 780, 790, 800 ranges, we can estimate - looks like the 40% would cross at about 790.

This is by no means scientific, but its interesting.

Based on all this fun stuff, I think that AT WORST, your odds are in the table above. If you buy my premise that yield will vary based on score,

640: 10%
650-690: 22%
700-740: 32%
750-800: 42%

and maybe even higher.

What I love most about these kinds of numbers is that they show exactly what I'd expect and what everyone on this site needs to remember.

GMAT is one important factor, but its only that - a factor.
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That was conservative... If you look further down, see pelihu's (better) analysis.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 10:54
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dosa_don
Kryzak- I checked Kellogg's statistics on US news ( I am a paid subscriber) and this is what I see for Fall 06 admissions:

Applicants for full time = 4072
Acceptances for full time = 977
Enrolled = 556

giving us an acceptance rate of 24% and yield of 57%. I think you could be counting the 1Y program students (usually around 75) in your number of 625.
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I guess that's what confusing me... the numbers are all different in BW, US News, and Kellogg's own stats... sometimes they include 2Y only, sometimes they include MMM and 1Y... very confusing.

Ok, lower yield is good, for us ;)
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 11:04
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I love you pelihu! ;) You just made my day. :)

Quote:
Looking once again at the figures provided in the official Kellogg document, I would guess things look something like this:

(For 2 year MBA & MMM applicants because their numbers are grouped together, all numbers rounded off)
up to 640:
total applicants 785
total enrolled 50
total offers based on estimated yield of 90% 55
admit rate 7%

650-690
total applicants 1100
total enrolled 139
total offers based on 75%: 185
admit rate 16.8%

700-740
total applicants 1610
total enrolled 272
total offers based on 50%: 540
admit rate 33.5%

750-800
total applicants 432
total enrolled 89
total offers based on 40%: 225
admit rate 52%
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mNeo
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 11:04
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kryzak

I'm wondering, if they say roughly 50% of all applications are "junk" either because of the essays, recommendations or grades/GMAT, that means the acceptance rate for all the top schools are roughly doubled for people like us who are spending time revising and editing our essays over a period of months. If our GMAT/GPA are pretty decent, and our recommenders know to write very specific examples, and we don't bomb our interviews (since supposedly doing well in interviews doesn't change that much), then we probably have a 40% chance of admission to the top 15 schools.
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Playing with percentages can give us a false sense of security. So, lets take a specific example. Let's take Kellogg. Assume that there are 4000 applicants and 960 get acceptance - giving a 24% acceptance rate.

Also assume that profiles of 50% of applications are weak in one or more areas. So, 960 applicants get accepted out of 2000 applicants who have good work-history, GMAT/GPA, recommendations, essays and interviews .. i.e. overall strong profiles. From a percentage point of view, we have a 48% chance of getting selected, which seems very high. But from a sheer numbers point of view, we have to beat 1040 very strong applicants (Who, just like you, do not lack in any area) to get accepted.

So, turning a 48% chance into a 100% chance of getting selected by the time your application gets reviewed is a hell lot more difficult than turning your 24% chance into a 48% chance.
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 11:13
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kind of odd to hijack GSB's thread to discuss K but here goes:

Latest "Facts and Figures" for K:

https://kellogg.northwestern.edu/admissi ... 07_web.pdf

Well does not look like a huge jump in number of applicants to me: around 100 more overall when compared to 06 (around 70 in the 2Y and MMM pool). I am not sure about the acceptance % but the GMAT score bands are interesting.

I did the same analysis as Rhyme and came up with this.

640- = 12% acceptance
650-690 - 18%
700-740 - 27%
750+ - 30%
So what it shows I think is that over 700, your GMAT score does not really matter much.

I would take this as just a directional analysis. I assumed yields of 80%, 70%, 60% and 50%. Came up with a total of 961 admits and 589 enrolled (~62% yield).
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Calling Chicago GSB 2008 applicants 27 Aug 2007, 11:18
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dosa: you should look at pelihu's analysis with the yield numbers. It makes sense and is supported by good logic. With that yield, your 700+ acceptance rates should go up to 40-50%.

mNeo: You are correct, competing against the 2000 applicants will require us to be better at essays, recommendations, and interviews. That's why I said this is just to help us sleep better at night, but doesn't mean our work is over! ;)
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