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# Challenging Question

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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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09 Jun 2011, 23:42
Which always refers to the noun before it. So "which" refers to "local times" rather than "abolition of local times".

ykaiim wrote:
The introductory part is in past tense. So, we need rest of the format in past tense.
1. determined - It is a past participle paralle with led. Moreover it is preferred, IMO, to which were determined

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
The abolition of local times is singular adjectival phrase. So, which were is incorrect.

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

So, E is correct, though best of the all worst.

nusmavrik wrote:
Hi Guys

I am reopening this question- since I am am still not able to zero-in on the answer.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

C / E which one and why ?

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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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14 Jul 2011, 06:01
I want to put some more light on C/E split.
A:- S-V-Agreement issue .another thing is misplaced modifier( abolition of local times,which(seems like modifying abolition not times-according of mission critical modifier)
B-ditto A
C- solve the agreement issue,but relative clause issue remain.
D-differed is incorrect(differed is past participle) it should be differing,which would get it's verb from main verb.
E- determined ......differing parallel.present participle get their tense from main verb.
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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14 Jul 2011, 22:17
IMO D. I dont agree with the OA,what's the source of this question?
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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14 Jul 2011, 23:41
nusmavrik wrote:
Hi Guys

I am reopening this question- since I am am still not able to zero on the answer.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

C / E which one and why ?

Definitely E

since it's "times", so you should use plural forms. That eliminates A, B

C: "which were... and ____ "the part after "and" should be parallel to "which were", so the correct form should be "which were ... and which differed". SO C is out

D and E both start with "determined by..." suggesting that they're participial phrases, so the part after "and" should be a participial phrase too and that eliminates D.

E is correct in that it's a participial phrase in parallel structure, modifying "local times"
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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07 Sep 2011, 10:09
1
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Quote:
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

[Reveal] Spoiler:
E

Strike one: subject-verb agreement - it should be "local times...were" --> eliminate A and B

Strike two: parallelism - when using 'which', it should be "which were determined...which differed" --> eliminate C

Strike three: Parallelism -
'Local times [highlight]determined[/highlight] by...' and '[local times] [highlight]differed[/highlight] from city to city' --> incorrect.
As a quick check, we move the modifying verb to form...'differing times' vs 'differed times'. 'differed times' don't make sense!
'Local times [highlight]determined[/highlight] by...' and '[local times] [highlight]differing[/highlight] from city to city' --> correct as both highlighted are verbs
Eliminate D

Thanks, nusmavrik and seekmba for below notes/explanations!

Quote:
There are 2 ways to make this sentence parallel.
1.
Local times, which were determined by
Local times, which differed from city to city

2. Now I see that gmat doesnt gave me first option since second which is missing in the answer choices. B has SV error. was should be were since local times are plural.

So I compress the modifiers -
modifer1 becomes = local times, determined by blah blah (which OUT)
modifier2 becomes = local times, differed from city to city (that doesn't sound good). Because it isn't.

So I go with choice E.
modifer2 = local times, differing from city to city (and determined by the time when the sun reached the observer's meridian)

differing is a verb
determined is a verb (past participle to be exact)

Quote:
the main idea behind whether to choose the -ing form or the -ed form this:

When we reduce a verb to its -ing or -ed form, we must look at one and only one thing: whether the noun that it will modify is the subject or object of that verb.

The -ing form is used for DOING the action, which means SUBJECT, which means ACTIVE voice.

The -ed form is used for RECEIVING the action, which means OBJECT, which means PASSIVE voice.

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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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29 Sep 2011, 00:02
nusmavrik wrote:
Hi Guys

I am reopening this question- since I am am still not able to zero on the answer.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

C / E which one and why ?

Thanks nusmavrik for posting this nice question.
I also got trapped in D
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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06 Apr 2012, 08:25
1
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isn't differing wrong here as we are talking about past
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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06 Apr 2012, 12:25
vdbhamare wrote:
isn't differing wrong here as we are talking about past

I'm also confused by this. Can anyone explain why "differing" is used? Maybe i missed it earlier
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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06 Apr 2012, 20:04
2
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Most of the problems with this text arise because of the difficulties posed by the nature of the participial modifiers both the past and the present. It must be noted that these participles do not carry a sense of tense per se. They are tenseless and can be used universally. To repeat, a past participle such as ‘determined’ can be used in present and future tense situations and the present participle ‘differing’ can be used in past, present, and future similarly.

Ex:written to satirize the eccentricities of the olden earldom of the English and read by millions over the world, Wodehouse’s books are a great hit— part participles used in present tense sentence

Working for just a couple of weeks, Joe dreamt that he could easily cross 750 in his GMAT. --Present participle in past tense context.

In this context, the participle ‘determined by’ and ‘differing’ are plain descriptives of a universal happening namely the local times. Therefore, it is acceptable to use a past participle and a present participle in the same sentence and still be parallel. There are more examples of this phenomenon in GMAT.

The problem with D is that, the word ‘differed’ (local times differed) becomes a past tense verb and thus breaks the parallelism by using a participle and a verb, when two participles should have been used. The past verb means that the local times differed only in the past and not these days. That is the reason E scores over D. In C the unnecessary intrusion of the past tense phrase ‘which were’ restricts the universality only to past

A real hair puller. Kudos to poster
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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24 Apr 2012, 14:33
nusmavrik wrote:
Hi Guys

I am reopening this question- since I am am still not able to zero on the answer.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

C / E which one and why ?

This is what I found

http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/100 ... t1787.html
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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09 Jun 2012, 10:04
nusmavrik wrote:
Hi Guys

I am reopening this question- since I am am still not able to zero on the answer.

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

C / E which one and why ?

i pick E here. "times" is the object in "determined" and subject in "differing". there is a similar question in OG 12. the question number is 42.
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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12 Jun 2012, 09:13
1
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daagh wrote:
Most of the problems with this text arise because of the difficulties posed by the nature of the participial modifiers both the past and the present. It must be noted that these participles do not carry a sense of tense per se. They are tenseless and can be used universally. To repeat, a past participle such as ‘determined’ can be used in present and future tense situations and the present participle ‘differing’ can be used in past, present, and future similarly.

Ex:written to satirize the eccentricities of the olden earldom of the English and read by millions over the world, Warehouse’s books are a great hit— part participles used in present tense sentence

Working for just a couple of weeks, Joe dreamt that he could easily cross 750 in his GMAT. --Present participle in past tense context.

In this context, the participle ‘determined by’ and ‘differing’ are plain descriptives of a universal happening namely the local times. Therefore, it is acceptable to use a past participle and a present participle in the same sentence and still be parallel. There are more examples of this phenomenon in GMAT.

The problem with D is that, the word ‘differed’ (local times differed) becomes a past tense verb and thus breaks the parallelism by using a participle and a verb, when two participles should have been used. The past verb means that the local times differed only in the past and not these days. That is the reason E scores over D. In C the unnecessary intrusion of the past tense phrase ‘which were’ restricts the universality only to past

A real hair puller. Kudos to poster

Amazing explanation... Thanks a tonn.. Kudos to poster as well for such a question....
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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18 Jul 2012, 23:59
I was very much confused, referred to Manhattan Post here:

Quote:
Reply form Stacey Koprince:

Can't decide based on which / determined. Could construct a correct sentence either way.

The growth led to X, [which were A and B], and Y.

X and Y need to be parallel; A and B need to be parallel. X and Y aren't underlined, so we can ignore them (but note that they are parallel already!).

C says "which were determined by and differing" - those aren't parallel.

In D and E, you can tell determined = participle, not verb, because (a) it immediately follows a comma and (b) there's no subject you could match up with determined in a normal subject-verb configuration. Even if you match determined with the noun "times" (to which the clause is referring) "times, determined by" is not proper subject-verb config.

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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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19 Jul 2012, 00:32
Thanks for the post guys! A lot of Gyan(knowledge) came out of this post!
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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19 Jul 2012, 01:11
Note : growth of the railroads is singular
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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19 Jul 2012, 04:24
Hi everyone the usage of the "ing" and "ed " is well explained .But still i dont understand why C is wrong ."Which" in the sentence correctly refers to the local times .
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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10 Aug 2012, 14:26
nusmavrik wrote:
Hi Guys

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and which differed
(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed
(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing

One way to break this amazingly confusing sentence down is like this: (using E)

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

Finally, you are modifying local times that were abolished during a certain point in time. (hence why C is so commonly debated).

Local times were determined [ at a certain point in time ] and differing from city to city [ they still differ today ].

Hope this helps breaking it down.
-C
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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22 Aug 2012, 07:56
This question just threw me off.
Mindblowing one
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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22 Aug 2012, 08:12
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Hi guys,
The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

• The growth of the railroads led to
o the abolition of local times, and
o the establishment of regional times.
• Two characteristics of local times have been mentioned in the sentence:
o they were determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian, and
they differed from city to city.

1. Singular verb “was” does not agree in number with plural subject “local times”. SV must agree in number error.

2. Also “was” seem to be the verb for “abolition of local times”, meaning abolition was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian. This is certainly not the intended logical meaning of the sentence. Meaning error.

3. The two characteristics of “local times” must be parallel to each other. Here, “which was determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian” (a clause) is not parallel to “differing from city to city” ( a verb-ed modifier phrase). Parallelism error.

POE:

(A) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Errors discussed above.

(B) which was determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and which differed: Incorrect. Same SV number agreement and meaning errors as in A.

(C) which were determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Incorrect. Same parallelism error as in A.

(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed: Incorrect. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier) is not parallel to “differed from city to city” (a verb phrase). Notice here that “determined” is not a verb here. It is a verb-ed modifier that is modifying “local times”. If it were a verb, ther would be no comma before it and the subject and the verb would be connected properly.

(E) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differing: Correct. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier phrase) is parallel to “differing from city to city” (a verb-ing modifier phrase). Both the modifiers are correctly presenting the characteristics of “local times”. Refer to OG 12#42 to see how verb-ing and verb-ed modifiers can be parallel to each other.

1. SV pair must always agree in number.
2. SV pair must always make sense together.
3. In a list of parallelism, all the entities must be grammatically as well as logically parallel.

The concepts tested in this sentence have been covered in e-gmat concepts:
1. Level 1 - SV - Agree in Number (This concept features in Level 1 Preview Concepts that are available for free. Just register and learn.)
2. Level 2 - SV - Make Sense
3. Level 1 - Parallelism - Identify and Correct
4. Level 1 - Parallelism - Helpful Tips

You can also review our article on this topic by clicking on the following link:
verb-ed-verb-ing-can-be-parallel-126923.html

Hope this helps.
Thanks.
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Re: Challenging Question [#permalink]

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22 Aug 2012, 09:22
[quote="egmat"]
(D) determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian and differed: Incorrect. “determined by when the sun reached the observer's meridian” (a verb-ed modifier) is not parallel to “differed from city to city” (a verb phrase). Notice here that “determined” is not a verb here. It is a verb-ed modifier that is modifying “local times”. If it were a verb, ther would be no comma before it and the subject and the verb would be connected properly.

Why "differed from city to city" is a verb phrase and not a verb-ed modifier. In the context of the sentence

The growth of the railroads led to the abolition of local times, determined by when the sun reached the observer’s meridian and differed from city to city, and to the establishment of regional times.

If we omit the red coloured part then "differed" can be treated as verb-ed modifier.

Please explain and make me understand the concept.
Re: Challenging Question   [#permalink] 22 Aug 2012, 09:22

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