Has there been a drop in int'l apps to US schools?

Question

I overheard a few adcom people chatting at the QS MBA World Tour in Frankfurt. One, (a non-American) stated that applications to US schools from international applicants were down again this year. From what I've read, if true, that would be a continuation of a trend that started in 2003 or so.

Can anybody confirm?

Given the strength of the Euro, US MBA programs are as cheap as they have ever been for Europeans. The only thing that I think would keep international applicants away is a distaste for the current political situation in the US (news flash: people don't like Bush and that opinion seeps into areas where it doesn't really belong).

gmatclb · Answer

Do you mean international European applicants?

I think overall international applicants have been increasing with the highest increases from surprise, Inida.

But maybe Europeans have been decreasing?

kwam · Answer

Brazilian apps have more and more been going to European schools. However this year application for US schools will skyrock.

I believe that overall the trend is different, especially from India and perhaps China. In short the from BRICs I think the overall trend has been upwards.

dosa_don · Answer

Interesting discussion. I noticed that the activity on both b-week forums and admissions411.com seems to be lower than last year. GMAT-club has much higher activity, and this could be just because our popularity has sky-rocketed and more and more b-week'ers are moving over here. 

Also, of the active participants, most of them seem to be Indian, not many Americans? 

But the apps have gone up a lot- Cornell has said that they have seen 35% higher apps in their first round.

Toploader · Answer

I mean international in general but perhaps it makes sense to split European from the others. FWIW, the QS MBA World Tour fairs in Frankfurt and Munich were almost barren. Tuck, Wharton, Berkeley, Texas were at the Frankfurt fair and people just didn't seem to be lining up to talk to them like I'd seen at the same fair in Munich in 2004. Weird. The evidence is anecdotal at best, but it would *seem* that European applications are either down or not trending comparably with the otherwise increasing number of applications. I'm hoping this is the case. While I'm an American, I've lived in Germany for almost 4 years and have put in about a year between Paris and Moscow. Maybe they'll see me as an underrepresented pseudo-European! :wink:

pelihu · Answer

i don't have any data so this is just speculation, but I'd say the general trend (not just this year, but for the last 4-5 years) has been lower applications from Europe and higher applications from BRIC. If I had to guess, I'd say there are two reasons.

First, of course, is the rising economies of the BRIC economies. That's pretty self explanatory, but with better economies more people are interested in education to better take advantage of new opportunities, etc.

The second factor has been the rise of London as a financial center. Certainly, London has been a financial center for a long time, but it's stature has really changed in the course of the past few years. A few weeks ago, one banker told me that the it's plain to see that it's now just as prestigious to launch a big IPO in London as it is in NY. That wasn't the case 5 years ago. And with all the increased reporting related to SOX, a lot of companies would just prefer not to be listed in NY. From a students perspective, I'd imagine it's a lot more appealing to stay and work in London than it was 5 years ago. Some who, in the past would have applied to US schools are probably now gunning for top European schools.

kwam · Answer

Totally true regarding London because of the HSMP, which gives "automatic" visa for MBA holders from certain schools...

bsd_lover · Answer

If this is true, it could be good news for Australian/New Zealand applicants. Although interest level was pretty high in the information sessions I attended at Sydney (Wharton and Stanford).

ashish.mahendra · Answer

As an Indian Apllicant and an ex-MBA student in India, I agree with Pelihu completely.

There's another reason for the sudden increase in Indian applications in the past few years.As Indian economy evolves and expands, More and more multinationals are entering the Indian market.

This means that there is a growing requirement for quality MBA's for the jobs.
However, there's only a handful of "World class" B-schools in India and the number of applicants is huge.Its said that the IIM-A is the toughest B-school to get into in the world.I can understand that completely. If you happen to score a 97 percentile on the Indian version of the GMAT, you will not be able to get into the top 5 schools in India.So, those that cannot get into these schools automatically look elsewhere to get an MBA.

As far as the orivate B-schools go, 95% are just not good enough.The curriculum is basically crap and the faculty has absolutely no research interest.these schools are run like money making machines and there's no focus on the curriculum at all. By the way, there isnt a single MBA program in India( Barring 3 IIM's) thats good for jobs like Investment banking or trading

Besides that, With the economy growing, the middle class suddenly has more disposable income and there's easy availability of loans.Hence the increased number of applicants

mNeo · Answer

I disagree. Most of Indians at GMATClub are applying to other B-schools for reasons other than the difficulty of getting into the IIMs. :roll:

In fact, considering that all the top US schools select only a handful of Indians (Thanks to the diversity requirements), I would say that it is as difficult to get into a Kellogg (Say) as it is to get into a top IIM.

lepium · Answer

The HSMP list includes several top US programs, along with at least 10 UK programs and a few others from around the world. Follow the link for the list: https://www.gmatclub.com/forum/t42109 Given the list, I believe the argument holds , for eg., for applicants who would not be able to get into top 20ish US schools but could get into top 10 UK schools, but not for applicants who would be competitive at top 20ish US schools. Edited to correct spelling L.

ashish.mahendra · Answer

Lets look at the stats for argument's sake.

Total Applicants for IIM CAT: 250,000 (Last year)

Number of seats in All IIM's for full time programs: 1000 (approx)

do the math Neo......................

Its pretty straightforward.......I've been there dude, taken the IIM CAT and interviewed and stuff.

Yes I agree that there are certain aspects of US B-school applications which makes applying to them tricky......

But for sheer number of applicants, no college can beat the IIM's.Besides, the out of every 6 people interviewing at the IIM's, the only 1 gets a final admit.

hbs.aspirant · Answer

I agree with mNeo. 
With 2-4 years of U.S. work experience and a 750+ GMAT, many of us who have been out of India for past 6 months can get into IIM  comparatively  easily. I am comparing to Tuck, Cornell, Kellogg and NYU Stern kinds, not H/S/W or Chicago.
One of the reasons for admissions to IIM being easy is absence of essays, recos and no emphasis on community involvement.

hbs.aspirant · Answer

I would not go by count Ashish. Out of 250,000, I would say over 200,000 (perhaps more) take a shot in the dark. They do appear for CAT, but not necessarily for IIM. Not many of rest 50,000 are very sure of there candidacy. I would say hardly 20-25k are the ones cometing. And me an Indian, deja vu.

dosa_don · Answer

By the same count- I would say only about 50% of the applicants to HBS have any real shot- the rest of them are just 'dead meat'

including myself :lol:

aaudetat · Answer

ugh...even after nearly 3 months of b-school my eyes still glaze over when you all start dropping stats all over....wait, someone should run a regression. I LOVE those. :lol:

ashish.mahendra · Answer

alright, my point was that there aren't too many quality schools in India.......

So if you want a program that gives you a global perspective, good facilities and most of all, the opportunities you want, US is any day better than India.

I went to a top 10 school in India.Went into commodity trading and Consulting later on.

Now that I think back, none of my prof's were any good at trading or supply chain.

So now that I look for career enhancement, Its logical to apply to a few good programs in the US.

I couldn't have done it 7 years ago when loans were hard to come by.

Plus, I can apply to some Indian schools and get another MBA.But I'm not gonna get too much value out of it.Plus there arent any schools that can add much value in terms of trading knowlledge and skills.Same for supply chain......

Trust me, the typical understanding of the Indian pro about trading is rudimentary.

My ex CEO once asked me in a meeting: "Why didn't we trade options for this physical"? the idiot didn't even know that the company had no means to value options.

And I'm talking about a really big trading company here.............well known.....

The Indian market has expanded a lot, the education system is still living in the 80's...............

So people wanting the best educational resources and employment opportunities are naturally applying to schools abroad.

More reasons more ppl are applying now is because:

1) they can afford it by way of loans etc.

2) They know that even in the eventuality that they have to come back to India, they will end up getting decent jobs and earn decent money since the job market is looking up.

3) With more and more multinational setting up shop in India, they need people with a global perspective.None of the Indian MBA's (barring ISB) provides that.

4) Certain jobs require specialized knowledge and skills.And msot Indian MBA programs are not geared for that.

Thus the increase in Indian applicants.........

Maybe this makes no sense.......................

kryzak · Answer

either my cold is slowing my brain down, or this is way above me. I'm a bit confused by the discussion/debate... my brain hurts

mNeo · Answer

Okay, that convinced me :-D

Some interesting facts for your pleasure: Selectivity of some decent colleges in Delhi University - 0.005 to 0.007 (Ref: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 756011.cms) Selectivity of MIT undergrad - 0.1 How many applicants apply to MIT as a backup for those colleges of Delhi University - zilch! BTW, statements like "I've been there dude" never impress your audience. They only make you sound rude and/or immature. Maybe this B-school application process (Or just hanging out here on GMATClub) will teach you "humility" (It certainly taught me that). Open your eyes and you'll see people who've been at a lot more places than you or me or aviroop (Sorry avi, just felt like pulling you into the discussion :wink:

)

filmcity · Answer

Sorry to jump in, but IMHO we are just moving away from the crux of the discussion in order to console our egos...

I agree, there is no reason to to compare the selectivity of IIMs with Top US B-Schools because quality , not quantity of competition matters.

But that was an aside of the discussion. What Ashish wanted to establish were some reasons why more and more Indians are trying to get US MBA. And his logics on easy availabbility of loan and growing Indian middle class, non availability of quality education etc., are just apt.

"BTW, statements like "I've been there dude" never impress your audience"..sure! neither does statements like "many of us who have been out of India for past 6 months can get into IIM comparatively easily".

if someone wants to "teach.. humility" , then please teach everyone who needs it regardless of one's affinity to the teachers thought. :lol: