Need some inputs

Question

Dear Mike,
As coordinating adjectives can be used to modify a noun even without using 'and,' can we say this logic also governs for participles as well as relative clauses, provided whatever modifying
should be in parallel, and convey idea clearly? - give some examples, please.
The other doubt is regarding usage of commas, except in few cases like apposite and lists. I think it depends mostly on style. Sometimes in journalism, people don't follow 'FANBOYS' and use comma only to avoid confusion, if not haphazardly. Am i correct sir?

A certification from you will help me a lot.

Regards,
Neha

mikemcgarry · Answer

Dear Neha , Coordinate adjectives are a special case, for words that have to occur together. A single word participle may serve as a coordinate adjective (" planning session ", " wedding gown ", " pitching mound ", etc. ). This is a single-word phenomenon; perhaps in rare cases, it would involve 2 words. Participial phrases, relative clauses, and other multi-word constructions cannot play this role. Yes, journalism does not always follow the most formal standards of writing. The GMAT is more formal than many journalism sources. Please include some examples you have read, and we can discuss these. Mike :-)

neha338 · Answer

Dear Mike,
Sorry to say but i am unable to figure out your point on coordinating adjectives - participle phrases, relative clauses, other multi-word constructions cannot play the role, while you already mentioned we can use it rarely in previous sentences.
Some books say we can avoid use of markers, like and, if all words are in parallel, and we can insert 'and' in between (though we don't use) , and interchanging words do not change the meaning.
As-
Raised as a nobleman and educated in the leading scientific theories of his days, Antoine Lavoisier, recognized as the father of chemistry, naming both 'oxygen' and 'hydrogen', proving that sulfur was an element was guillotined on highly questionable charges.

As we can interchange phrases and they all are in parallel, we are free to avoid 'and.'

On journalistic writings,
i have an example from today's NYT article's first paragraph which goes by - 
THIS has been a bad year for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, with scandals over a bridge closure and, most recently, a shady real estate deal. But the authority has a chance at redemption, if it is willing to move beyond its traditional mandate. Its model of interstate cooperation could do much more than prevent traffic jams; it could also play the leading role in managing the ecological health of the Hudson River estuary , and  serve as an example for other coastal cities around the world facing complex environmental problems in a time of climate change. 
have a look at last sentence which avoids 'FANBOYS' and uses ',and.'

Regards,
Neha

mikemcgarry · Answer

Dear Neha , I'm happy to respond. :-)

First, let's be 100% clear. The conjunction " and " IS one of the FANBOYS conjunctions. The " A " in F A NBOYS stands for " AND ." Your final sentence doesn't make sense to me, because if the sentence uses " and ," it is not avoiding FANBOYS. The " and " in that NYT sentence is perfectly correct, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the substance of your question. It serves to put two verbs in parallel: " it could also play ... and serve ..." If two verbs are in parallel, we always need a conjunction: in fact, 95% of the time, that conjunction is " and ," but in rare cases, could be " or " or " but " or " nor " or " yet ." The conjunctions " for " and " so " can only put entire clauses in parallel, not anything else. So, you haven't provided a journalistic example of the point about which you are asking. Here's what I'll say: I'll be very clear. Coordinate adjectives are an obscure special case. Forget about them! FORGET ABOUT THEM! Pretend that you never learned about coordinate adjectives! You would be much better off if you and this grammar term never met. Thinking about this special case is getting you wildly confused and causing you to ask a bunch of far-fetched questions that are entirely irrelevant to the GMAT. Forget about coordinate adjectives completely. The GMAT is absolutely not going to test coordinate adjectives --- if they appear in a GMAT sentence at all, they will appear in the non-underlined part. Forget about them completely. You don't need to know them at all. Things in parallel, whatever those things are, ALWAYS need a conjunction between them, and again, 95% of the time, that conjunction is " and ." That's what you need to know for the GMAT. If you are reading anything about grammar that is not specific to the GMAT, stop immediately. Cease and desist. If you have an advanced grammar book, burn it, or at least hide it from yourself until after the GMAT. Avoid any websites discussing grammar that are not oriented specifically to the GMAT. For GMAT grammar, read ONLY sources that are focused on the GMAT itself. The MGMAT books are excellent. The Magoosh SC Lesson videos are excellent. Neither of these sources even begins to treat weird unusual topics such as coordinate adjectives. Think about it. Just as mathematics as a whole is a much much bigger topic than GMAT math, and it would be a huge mistake for a GMAT student to start diving into advanced math topics (multivariable calculus, algebraic topology, differential geometry, etc.), because all that is 100% irrelevant to the GMAT; so, grammar as a whole is a HUGE topic, from which the GMAT focuses on only some very specific points, and it would be an equally bad idea for a GMAT student to get caught in all kinds of advanced grammar issues that are 100% irrelevant to the GMAT. Does all this make sense? Mike :-)

neha338 · Answer

Yes Mike, it seems you are right with coordinating adjectives, and i should better be off with these terminologies and rules. I never liked these pedantic rules and all; richness and understanding of literature will go away when you focus rules too much. Even sometimes i get confused in between these rules and apposite (!). Logic works any day. Coordinating adjectives, i think if used, are used with small words and shorter in lenght - The beautiful,smart girl - and are very rare on GMAT.
Regarding my point on journalistic writing, my doubt is on usage of commas. I think two independent clauses joined by a coordinating word - FANBOYS - require a comma before that coordinating word. Though commas are used at others places, especially oxford one to avoid confusion, i think when two independents are there, commas are mandatory. That's why i quoted NYT article as if i remove that comma, it is still very clear - redundancy. And, this is one of my point when i said 'it depends on style.'
I think now you can understand my query better, Sir.

Regards,
Neha

mikemcgarry · Answer

Neha, I'm happy to respond. :-)

First of all, notice that the GMAT doesn't test commas either. It doesn't test punctuation per se at all. Part of the reason it avoids this topic is that it's fraught with ambiguity. This is the passage you quotes from the NYT, with the contentious FANBOYS conjunction marked: This has been a bad year for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, with scandals over a bridge closure and, most recently, a shady real estate deal. But the authority has a chance at redemption, if it is willing to move beyond its traditional mandate. Its model of interstate cooperation could do much more than prevent traffic jams; it could also play the leading role in managing the ecological health of the Hudson River estuary , and serve as an example for other coastal cities around the world facing complex environmental problems in a time of climate change. Notice, once again, this is NOT a couple of independent clauses in parallel, but rather, a single subject and two verbs in parallel. Between two clauses or two verbs in parallel, do we need a comma? Yes, the best answer is "it depends." As a general rule, if the clauses or predicates are relatively short and if omitting this comma would create no ambiguity or difficulty reading the sentence, then in general the comma is omitted. For example: The sun rose and a new day dawned . (two independent clauses) We talked about old times and laughed until our sides were sore . (parallel verbs) If the two clauses or two predicates are long, each with its own modifiers, and if the sentence is relatively long, then we use a comma, as the skilled NYT writer did in that sentence. Mostly, on the real GMAT SC, you will see long complicated sentences, so the trend will be toward sentences that include such commas. How long and complicated is long & complicated enough to warrant the use of a comma? Well, that's a gray area. I don't know that I would be able to say anything articulate about exactly what delineates this gray area. To some extent, what happens in this zone depends on personal tastes, and for different emphases, the same sentence could be perfectly fine both with and without the comma. More importantly, this is all WAY WAY more than you need to know for the GMAT. The GMAT does not test punctuation. Period. Does all this make sense? Mike :-)

neha338 · Answer

Hey Mike,
I am deeply indebted to you for your help. I was using commas with 'FANBOYS' as a mandatory rule but now i think they are completely dependent on writer and on length of sentence, and can be used with predicates. This rule will not be a criterion to declare any sentence as incorrect. 
Suggest something that could help me in my writing style, though it is a skill and can only be nurtured over a period of time by reading and all. I follow journalistic style - first important things, then things of lesser importance and then least. Advice something so that i could improve and write imaginatively.

Regards,
Neha

mikemcgarry · Answer

Dear Neha, Many writers consider Elements of Style , by Strunk and White , the bible of writing. I would highly recommend reading and re-reading that particular text. Another book I have found useful is When Words Collide: A Journalist's Guide to Grammar and Style , by Kessler & McDonald. A good reference book I will recommend is Practical English Usage , by Michael Swan. If you can integrate everything in those volumes, you will be writing at a high level. Keep in mind that none of the grammar in those books is keyed specifically to the GMAT: they are more about writing in general, not specifically about what will help you on GMAT SC. Mike :-)

neha338 · Answer

I will surely go through all of them. I need powerful writing skill before giving GMAT. And, i really liked the style of NYT but i am once again trapped -- look at the sentence
Oh, those. I was familiar with the stately ways of old-school book publicity: readings, dwindling print reviews, praying for a call from Terry Gross. Again no conjunction. But i am avoiding these silly points from next onward. 
Thank you very much, Sir.

NEHA

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