The players' helmets need to be repainted so that they will

Question

The  players' helmets  need to be repainted so that  they  will be ready to be used at
practice on Sunday.

According to MGMAT SC Guide:

1.  Possessive pronouns can refer back to possessive nouns. 
2.  Subject and object pronouns may only refer back to subject and object nouns

In this example,  they  (subject pronoun) is referring back to Player's helmets (possesive), therefore, violating the rule above.

If I had to rewrite it, it would be as such:
 The players' helmets need to be repainted so  their  helmets will be ready to be used at practice on Sunday.

Is this correct?

x2suresh · Answer

helmets --> not possessive 
players' --> possessive.

they clearly refers to helmets --- what kind of helmets ??? players' hemmets..

here "palyers' " act as adjective.

If you are trying to refer to players. "they are not playing with helmets" .. here they should refer to "palyers".. in this case it is "possessive poision"..

bigfernhead · Answer

Along the same line of reasoning as you've just provided:

Is this sentence correct?

Kathy's suitcase was so stuffed that she decided to pack another one.

icandy · Answer

What is the difference between players' and player's?

AFAIK, Players' is the plural of Player's

You are changing the meaning as a part of the rewrite by using singular vs plural. Was that intentional or a typo?

I agree with the pronoun reference by MGMAT

x2suresh · Answer

she can't refer to suitcase (things).. she can refer only Kathy (Person)..
But in this you don't have antecedent Kathy.. you have antecedent in Possessive form (Kathy's)

In previous question..

They can refer to --- either things/people.. 
generally They can logically refer to "helmets"
generally They can also logically refer to "people"

In the below statement "they" should refers to "helmets" not "players"

The players' helmets need to be repainted so that they will be ready to be used at
practice on Sunday.

gmatavenue · Answer

In "players' helmets" you cannot refer back to players, a pronoun can refer back to helmets.
In "Kathy's suitcase" you cannot refer back to Kathy, a pronoun can refer back to suitcase.

"They" can refer back to things, ex helmets etc. But "she" has to refer back to a lady , it cannot refer back to things without gender.

bigfernhead · Answer

Yes it was a typo :oops:

I'll correct it on my first post.

bigfernhead · Answer

OK now I see. This makes a lot more sense. Thanks.
 +1

bigfernhead · Answer

Can you guys shed light on these examples?

1-  The  manager's obstinate and surly attitude  prevented  his  staff from befriending  him .

vs

2-   Jose's room  is so messy that  HIS  mother calls  HIM  a pig.

#1 is correct, #2 is incorrect.

But aren't they structured in the same manner?

x2suresh · Answer

yes they structured in the same manner.. 
both statements --> possessive poision category

bigfernhead · Answer

Yes, but how come one is correct and the other one incorrect?

x2suresh · Answer

In GMAT.. IF all answer choices have pronoun reference issue, then we need to select the best one.

Can you post the complete questions of both statements.

sondenso · Answer

Also follow ManSC, I think "him" in 1 and 2 cannot refer back to "the manager's" and "Joe's". "him" should be replaced by "the manager" in 1 and "Joe" in 2, making the two senctenes correct.

bigfernhead · Answer

OK, but

1- The manager's obstinate and surly attitude prevented his staff from befriending him. (page 71, Q#15 of MGMAT SC)

2- Jose's room is so messy that HIS mother calls HIM a pig. (page 55)

#1 is correct and #2 is incorrect in the MGMAT SC BOOK.

That's where I'm confused. Is there a typo in the book?

grumpyoldman · Answer

When I was studying linguistics, one of the favourite subjects for papers in linguistic journals was English pronouns, and what they can or cannot refer to. In other words, there was considerable disagreement (among people who understand this stuff about 100 times better than any English teacher or test prep company) as to what exactly IS correct and incorrect. I expect that this situation has not changed.

I see nothing wrong with either sentence. I notice that these aren't true GMAC questions.

I see nothing wrong with either sentence. I notice that these aren't true GMAC questions.

tusharvk · Answer

I do not know if 2 is incorrect. Why is it incorrect?

bigfernhead · Answer

This is what Mgmat says:

Possessive nouns are particularly dangerous on the GMAT. Consider the following:

Jose's room is so messy that HIS mother calls HIM a pig.

The possessive noun in this sentence is  Jose's.  Possessive pronouns can refer back to
possessive nouns. Thus the possessive pronoun  his  refers back to  Jose's . However, subject
and object pronouns may NOT refer back to possessive nouns. Therefore the object
pronoun  him  is used incorrectly because it may not refer back to  Jose's . Subject and object pronouns may only refer back to subject and object nouns.  Him  would only be accurate if it referred back to the word  Jose .

Even though it seems obvious that  him  refers to  Jose , the sentence must be changed in
order for it to be grammatically correct on the GMAT. We can fix the sentence by keeping
his and eliminating him.

Jose's room is so messy that his mother calls Jose a pig.

grumpyoldman · Answer

OK, let's say that the following analysis by MGMAT is correct:

"Possessive nouns are particularly dangerous on the GMAT. Consider the following:

Jose's room is so messy that HIS mother calls HIM a pig.

The possessive noun in this sentence is Jose's. Possessive pronouns can refer back to
possessive nouns. Thus the possessive pronoun his refers back to Jose's. However, subject
and object pronouns may NOT refer back to possessive nouns. Therefore the object
pronoun him is used incorrectly because it may not refer back to Jose's. Subject and object pronouns may only refer back to subject and object nouns. Him would only be accurate if it referred back to the word Jose.

Even though it seems obvious that him refers to Jose, the sentence must be changed in
order for it to be grammatically correct on the GMAT. We can fix the sentence by keeping
his and eliminating him.

Jose's room is so messy that his mother calls Jose a pig."

If that analysis is correct, then "The manager's obstinate and surly attitude prevented his staff from befriending him" has to be wrong for exactly the same reason. The object pronoun "him" is trying to refer the possessive noun "manager's". MGMAT can't have it both ways.

bigfernhead · Answer

That's what I'm saying

GMAT TIGER · Answer

We can link this thread to Manhattan GMAT forum (https://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/) and ask for their reasoning if there is any inconsistancy in their examples.

The players' helmets need to be repainted so that they will

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