Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor

Question

Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust  to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for.

A. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for

B. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

C. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

D. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they were responsible for

E. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security which were largely their responsibility

Ok, my question is when to use the 'gerund' form, what rules to follow?

egmat · Accepted Answer

Thanks Daagh for pointing out the BLATANT SV error. In the process of arguing about all the other stuff, we all totally missed the SV agreement error that is so evident in the original choice.

In reality, had I followed my usual process (the e-GMAT 3 step process), I would have caught this error in the first place...See this is what happens when one takes short cuts or when one is looking for a smoking gun. Now since I did not follow the process myself, I will take this upon myself to give a detailed analysis of this question.

Meaning Analysis

The two ladies (ER and FP) did not seek recognition by the press for something.
They allowed other people to take credit for something.
Something = genesis of specific historic programs.
These two ladies were in fact largely responsible for the genesis of these programs.

Error Analysis

Clause 1 - Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and
Clause 2 - both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security
Clause 3 - that were in large measure
Clause 4 - what they had been responsible for.

SV - SV pairs are marked as shown. Subject "that" in clause 3 refers to "genesis" and hence the verb "were" does not agree in number with the singular "genesis". SV Agreement Error

Verb - The sentence is established in past time frame. All verbs except verb in clause 4 are in simple past tense. Past perfect tense in clause 4 appears correct. The context of the sentence clearly indicates that the action of creation of the programs happened before anyone took credit for their creation. So in that sense past perfect tense seems ok.

Pronoun - Pronoun "they" should logically refer to the two ladies. Even the context indicates this reference. Why? because it would not make sense to first state that the ladies allowed others to take credit and then say that these other people were indeed responsible for the genesis of the programs. If the others were indeed responsible for this task, then why would the sentence say that the ladies ALLOWED then to take the credit. But that being said, if there is a choice that clarifies this reference i.e. a choice that does not use a pronoun, then we should consider that one if that choice does not have any other errors. Pronoun ambiguity is not something based on which you should eliminate a choice right away.

Modifier - Relative pronoun modifier "that" refers to singular "genesis". There is a large prepositional phrase describes genesis. So in that sense "that" refers to "genesis of programs in public employment, relief, and social security".

Parallelism - The list of programs is parallel.

So SV error is the primary error in this sentence. Other than that, the original choice is not very precisely written sentence. There may be a slight chance of pronoun ambiguity as well.

Based on this, now we find the correct answer from the 5 given choices.

Process of Elimination

Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for.

A. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for
SV Error

B. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible
Correct

C. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible
Modifier error - Verb-ing modifier modifies the preceding noun, non-sensically implying that the programs took credit.

D. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they were responsible for
SV error as in Choice A, Modifier Error as in Choice C

E. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security which were largely their responsibility
SV error as in Choice A, Punctuation issue - which is always preceded by a comma.

Thus choice B is the correct answer.

Take Away

The biggest TAKE AWAY from this question is that do not lose sight of a step by step process. Thoroughly analyze the original sentence. Don't just find one thing that too something that is not as deterministic, e.g. pronoun ambiguity, stylists issues, word order issues. This entire exercise was a great case in point. Knowing the grammar rules is not sufficient - we all discussed pretty heavy grammatical rules here. But ultimately the main difference among several choices was SV error. So please please please follow a step by step method to solve any SC question. Do not take short cuts...

I would like to thank daagh and Ashish for a wonderful discussion here. This discussion was a pleasure.

-Regards,
Payal

(PS: I hope I did not ramble too much here, its almost midnight here so I am not in my brightest of modes right now

, but this question was intriguing enough that I could not keep myself from writing this. )

-Regards, Payal (PS: I hope I did not ramble too much here, its almost midnight here so I am not in my brightest of modes right now

, but this question was intriguing enough that I could not keep myself from writing this. )

daagh · Answer

EducationAisle: 
Sorry to say that you mistook my calling the programs as the programs per se, rather than the genesis of those programs. Conduct of the programs was neither in context nor in contention. The programs themselves are no more than middlemen in this case. Leaders only originate the programs and others execute them. However, the point is what the past perfect is trying to signify in choice A? In other words, why was the perfect tense dropped in the correct choice B like hot potato? Put in different way, is the use of the past perfect in A , a part of the error log or not. If it is not, any valid reason for dropping it in the correct choice? May be , we can look forward to e-GMAT for an answer. I also liked e-GMAT’s diplomatic stand on the past perfect issue; both here and there. Incidentally, can you please cite an example, in which GMAT allowed an error in the right choice, however trivial the error was?

But that is not all

A has substantial problems further on. . Please read A. 
- to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for –

Genesis is what we are discussing, and the programs themselves are just addenda to the genesis. Genesis is singular. After removing the middlemen, it reads- to take credit for the genesis, that were in large measure what they had been responsible for. This is flagrant SV error. Some might say that after all stands for the programs, and therefore the verb is the plural –were-. Or some may say, the restrictive pronoun, ‘that’ represents only the social security which is singular and there the use of- were - is wrong. All in all, a relative pronoun muddle. 
Now please read B 
 to take credit for the genesis (of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security) for which the two women were in large measure responsible
Choice B dodges the issue it by introducing a ‘for which’ phrase, thereby skirting the relative pronoun touch rule and the consequent SV mis-match. 
Add to these unmistakable errors, e-GMAT’s point on ‘wrong word order issue’, and you will be wondering whether the difference between A and B is just about prepositional ending.
EducationAisle: I will be glad to clear your further doubts on this

GMATBLACKBELT · Answer

B. 

"taking" vs. to take. to take is needed b/c the first lady and the secretary allowed others to take, not taking.

Elim CDE.

A: they has no clear referent. could be the others or the two women.

B: fixes A's problem with referents.

tenaman10 · Answer

i read somewhere that comma is required before which ...thus discarded choice B ...
pls explain !!

snaps · Answer

pronoun Which is a nonrestrictive pronoun meaning that what follows Which is not necessary to identify the subject i.e. Which must be preceded with a comma. always. at least on GMAT.

chechaxo · Answer

Hello friends,

I have a specific question related to modifiers.
Need some help in understanding more about the relative pronoun "THAT" in the below construction.

Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of the historic program in public employment, relief, and social security  that were in large measure what the two women were responsible for.

My question is can that refer to a list? (In this case public employment, relief and social security)??
Is this sort of construction acceptable on the GMAT?

Also when can a comma precede a THAT in a sentence? 
example - "Large manufacturing companies such as ferrari, THAT"

Please help..

Thanks,
Chechaxo

HumptyDumpty · Answer

As to your first question, I am curious the answer myself. This is related:  click  (answer of Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:28 am).

As to your second question: Comma can precede a "that", when the "that" opens a non-essential modifier (NEM). The entire NEM should be flanked by commas, just as an essential modifier (EM) must not be. However, Manhattan SC advises that GMAC will use "that" for essential, and "which" for non-essential modifiers in most cases. Nevertheless, the use of commas in NEM/EM is superior to the choice between "that" and "which", as the latter is disputable.

KyleWiddison · Answer

Looking at the question above, the correct answer does not use that: "Neither first lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press,and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible." The phrase "For which" (in place of that) above refers to the historic programs and the prepositional phrase "in public employment, relief and social security" provides additional detail on the historic programs.

About the comma preceding 'that', your example includes a non-essential phrase, which should be set off by commas, before that. It should read - "Large manufacturing companies, such as Ferrari, that..." In that case, they commas are related to the non-essential phrase, not that.

KW

chechaxo · Answer

Thanks HumptyDumpty and KyleWiddison,

I am clear about my second question on the use of " Comma + That".
HumptyDumpty, from what i learn from Kyles response the comma structure before the that refers to the NEM.

For example in the sentence - "one will encounter more women wearing pants than wearing skirts, yet it was only two or three generations ago, in 1945,  that actress Mar lene Dietrich was forced by police to leave Paris for daring to wear

- that modifies generations ago while the "," before the that intends to demarcate the NEM "in 1985".

KyleWiddison, Please correct me if i am wrong.
 
Kylewiddson, HumptyDumpty,
However i am not still clear on whether "that" can refer to a list.
Please can you clarify with an example?

Thanks,
Chechaxo

chechaxo · Answer

Hello again!

During the course of my preparation many a times, I came across the structures -"For Which", "In Which", "From Which"....

My question - Just like "WHICH", do "FOR WHICH", "IN WHICH" and "FROM WHICH" have to modify the NOUN immediately preceding these constructions?

Please, can someone explain with an example?

Thanks in Advance.
Chechaxo

KyleWiddison · Answer

Chechaxo-

You are correct about 'that' modifying 'generations ago' and the commas creating the non-essential modifier.

'That' (when acting as a noun modifier) and 'which' will modify the closest noun, so 'that'/'which' will not modify an entire list (without some extra effort). Here is an example: I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop that recently opened. The clause "that recently opened" attaches to the closest noun, which is 'ice cream shop'. We could move the clause around to modify the different elements. I went to the store, the restaurant that recently opened, and the ice cream shop. Here, only the restaurant is modified. If we wanted to modify all three we have to be a bit more creative. I went to the store, the restaurant, and the ice cream shop, all of which were recently opened.  .

KW

KyleWiddison · Answer

Chechaxo-
Yes, it's the same situation with these variations of 'which'. Here are some examples:

The Forbidden City in Beijing, from which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate...
The Declaration of Independence, in which the American Colonies declare independence from Great Britian...

The 'which' still modifies the preceding noun, there is just the inclusion of a preposition that is necessary for proper meaning. If you said, "the Forbidden City in Beijing, which the emperors ruled by heavenly mandate" the meaning changes from Beijing being the capital city of the emperors to Beijing being the only area under the rule of the emperors.

KW

CrackverbalGMAT · Answer

This question is based on Idiomatic Usage and Construction.

Certain verbs in English are only followed by an infinitive and certain verbs only by a participle.  
For example, the verb ‘enjoy’ is followed only by participles.
E.g.: I  enjoy learning  languages.
The verb ‘want’ is followed only by infinitives.
E.g.: I  want to learn  different languages.

The verb ‘allowed’ should be followed by the infinitive ‘to take’ and not the participle form ‘taking’. 
 The participle ‘taking’ at the beginning of the underlined portion makes it a modifier that seems to describe how the two women ‘allowed’ others. However, this construction leaves the verb ‘allowed’ hanging as it is not clear what the other women allowed others. So, that helps us to eliminate   options C, D, and E   straightaway.

In Option A,  the past perfect tense ‘had been’ is inappropriate there is no later action in the past mentioned in the sentence .

The antecedent of the pronoun ’they’ is also ambiguous . It is not clear whether the pronoun refers to the ladies or to the historic programs.

The antecedent of the relative pronoun ‘that’ is also unclear.   It could be referring to the ‘genesis’ but that causes a subject-verb disagreement because the plural verb ‘were’ after the relative pronoun cannot refer to the singular antecedent ‘genesis’. So, Option A  can be eliminated.

The simple past tense ‘were responsible’ is appropriate in Option B.

The placement of the preposition ‘for’ at the beginning of the modifier only helps to make the antecedent of the relative pronoun clear. The placement of the noun “the two women” after the relative pronoun, helps to avoid the error of subject-verb disagreement.

Therefore, B is the most appropriate option.

Jayanthi Kumar.

Vivek1707 · Answer

Hello, 
Could someone explain the usage of "which" in option B, I understand that "which" can never refer to an entire preceding clause or phrase, Here which seems to be referring to the entire part from "the genesis... to security"

CrackverbalGMAT · Answer

Hi Vivek

In option (B), the relative pronoun is not "which" but "for which". The correct sentence reads:

Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust  to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security  for which  the two women were in large measure responsible .

As is usual, this refers back only to the immediately preceding nouns/noun ideas, ie; to " programs  in public employment, relief, and social security" (or, " genesis of historic programs  in public employment, relief, and social security").

Hope this helps.

Srini

thetablelamp · Answer

Can someone explain why B is correct without the word "for" at the end to say "responsible for"?. Without the "for", I feel like the meaning of the sentence changes to say that the two women were "responsible" people and not meaning that they were "responsible for" the genesis.

Shaajiib · Answer

My understanding is here is allowed.... to. So following this construction we can easily eliminate C,D,E. Now remain A & B.
Here A is incorrect because had been is not an appropriate tense here. So it should be B.

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harish555 · Answer

Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor Frances Perkins sought recognition by the press, and both cautiously allowed others of the Roosevelt brain trust to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for

A. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they had been responsible for
Here, that - essential modifier - modifies security. In that case were is wrong. If we want to consider that modifies programs , there should be a valid and strong reason . Still there is ambiguity.

B. to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible
No errors. For which refers back to genesis

C d and E can be easily eliminated based on the usage of present participle taking. Here, taking modifies trust . THat mens trust takes credit. As per meaning , others to take credit but not trust.

C. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

D. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security that were in large measure what they were responsible for

E. taking credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security which were largely their responsibility

So, our answer choice is B

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waytowharton · Answer

KarishmaB  madam I have a couple of doubts in this question -

1. Option B. - to take credit for the genesis of historic programs in public employment, relief, and social security for which the two women were in large measure responsible

Shouldn't we have past perfect tense because women had been responsible is prior to action women allowed?

2. Option A. - is there any other error apart from SV agreement that is that were?

Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor

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GMAT Sentence Correction (SC - EA only) Questions

Neither First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt nor Secretary of Labor

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