Understanding the dings of Gmatclubbers from previous years

Question

I've been looking at the application status thread from last year and noticed many people with good stats and seemly good why mba stories - (I used 'seemly' because I don't know for sure about everyone's story since not much is provided in that thread).

Given that most gmatclubbers should know the strategy, preparation, & process needed for a successful application, why do so many people with strong profiles still receive dings?

Perhaps for this years thread (2009) we can add on a section that includes adcom feedback for dings (if the school offers) so next year people will have some additional information to look at when assessing their chances. Thoughts?

EDIT:
 2008 applicants feel free to add your insight/adcom feedback info in here (feel free to include a lil about your profile as well)

Also, I don't see many people with ~2 years of work experience (~3 at matriculation) applying/getting accepted... can anyone point me to posts/threads that discuss important themes/issues to keep in mind in a younger applicant's application?

filmcity · Answer

I had a feedback session with Tuck, where I was waitlisted and then dinged!

They said my goal was not clarified ( which I agree with) and they even read out sentences from my essays to point out what was missing. It was very helpful feedback.

navy01 · Answer

I think a lot of gmatclubbers are from IT or engineering which is very competitive, especially for Indians.

My problem was I applied way to late in the process which was a huge mistake. Applying the day before the deadline for rolling admission is just a killer. I'll get feedback from Columbia when I'm officially rejected but I think it was more of a timing issue than anything.

agold · Answer

Would you mind sharing how you presented your goals and what exactly was not clear?

gmat blows · Answer

Great question. I am probably not the best person to offer feedback, since I am currently in the process of applying this fall but my first guess is a lack of passion in their essays.

When I look at some of the candidates that got rejected, it scares that crap out of me. But, as everyone says, I think what makes or breaks the candidate is how the achievements are presented. And it doesnt matter whether the achievement itself was huge or not - as long as it was a goal you had set for yourself and believed in, is what is important and should be reflected in your essays.

A candidate could go on and on about how he/she was able to win huge contracts and got promotions year after year but if there is no passion or excitement in the essay, personally, I wouldnt find it very attractive. I would rather much read an essay about a candidate who works hard and is passionate about whatever he/she is doing and has the potential to do so much more and offer so much more.

but who knows...maybe the adcoms would beg to differ.

riverripper · Answer

100% disagree with this being why most people get dinged on here. Maybe the average applicant but not folks on here who are the top of the mountain with effort put into researching how to position themselves and then executing. I read dozens of essays for people last year and can tell you that lots of people with great essays and presentations were dinged. But remember your presentation can only get you so far, I think a lot of dings come down to profile. Obviously someone could have the raw numbers for all the top schools...a great GPA, GMAT, years work experience and everything like that but its not right for the school. Their work experience isnt up to par, its not at the right companies, didnt advance fast enough, bad recommendations, and overall not "great" like they thought.

However, there is also a huge factor of fit. Someone could have a great profile for one top 5 school but not stand nearly as good a chance at the others. Schools look for different things so unless you are stud candidate you need to find what schools fit you the best. Honestly if you are an engineer applying to MIT, thats going to be a tougher hill to climb than applying to Kellogg or GSB. I have seen more than a few people apply to 5 schools but only get into 1...and more often than not its one of the ones they feel the most positive about (not counting the dream of H/S/W)...why does it feel like the best school for them, because it probably is and thats part of the reason they got in.

jasonc · Answer

I suspected as much - that most applicants from here have great essays/profile presentation. This is somewhat discouraging to hear though - I was hoping that most dings were caused by bad essays/personal marketing since its one of the few things I still have control over at this point in the application process :p Fit... hm, perhaps in the knowledge vault we can start building out what 'fit' means to each school? (or is this already around somewhere and I just haven't come across it) I know a lot of it is personal and most people do their own research/campus visits to see if they fit with the school - and perhaps there isn't a better way to see fit besides through personal research - but if there is a way to reduce redundant effort and make the application process (and school selection process) more streamlined for gmatclubbers, then maybe building some kind of 'fit' related profiles into the knowledge vaults for each school would be worth it

kryzak · Answer

jasonc, one good way to find out the "fit" for a school is to read the school threads from 2007 and 2008 applicants. They should be documented in the Knowledge Vault with links (might be a few levels of links).

As for a place where you can just list the fit issues with each school, the closest thing we have are those threads mentioned above and the Ambassador links for each school where the current students will try to answer questions of fit and the culture of their school.

of course, if you believe that is not enough, definitely propose an area and how you want to structure the area to Praetorian and he'll take it into consideration. That's how the Knowledge Vault, Member Profiles, Essay Vault, Ask Ambassadors, B-School Apps, B-School Life, and other GREAT sections got started.

gmat blows · Answer

If this is the case, then this isnt considered a 'strong profile'. (you must have done something pretty bad to get a bad recommendation, etc) My comment was regards to all things being equal, strong GMAT, GPA, WE, EC, what distinguishes one strong candidate with another. At this point, I believe it's in the essays. and if a candidate thoroughly researched the schools then the fit issue should reflect in the essays as well (i.e. there were certain schools that were appealing to me intitally, but after researching I've dropped some because I knew it wouldnt fit me. likewise I've found other schools that aligned better with who/how I am, schools I never would have considered at first, only to like it more and more after researching that school). So, in my opinion, if a candidate really researched and did his/her homework all of that should naturally show in the essays.

By all means, I'm not downgrading anyone's achievements and/or effort (I know that there are alot of people better than me and I know that everyone has worked their butts off to get to this point), I just believe that alot of it is still in the essays and that is something one can still control at this point.

MGOBLUE2 · Answer

Totally, agree with this statement. There is a certain fit factor. And I think that gets ignored here. I know people say visits to the school aren't necessary to demonstrate fit, but I think it is. You can talk to people here, or alums, or read the school's website, and while helpful, there are limits on this. I really believe spending a day at the school is the best way to determine fit.

If this was NOT the case, admit weekends would not be so darned important.

Steel · Answer

I agree 100% (until you posted I was going to write something very similar). I think often people (myself included) execute better on some apps than others. Also, the luck factor ends up playing a major role (especially for candidates on the bubble - where I imagine these things are being seen). You can't predict readers becoming attached to an app, that years applicant pool, etc.

Also, I think "fit" is often over attributed to the school's selection process when equal weight needs to be given to the accepted applicants choices to accept an offer. People will self-select into schools/cultures they feel comfortable in (both in the application process and in offer acceptance). This creates a big clustering of "fit" among matriculating students, where less of a correlation might be seen among admits (even those attending admit weekends are a self selected crowd).

terp26 · Answer

You could have a strong profile, great in every category , but the adcom were having a bad day, or one piece of your profile irked them, or the app they reviewed right before you was very similiar, so they flipped a coin (seems that way sometimes) , or took into account some minor detail that swayed the decision, (has a fondness of a particular interest of yours, etc).

I was reading in one of the admission books that 50% (Probably very rough estimate) of each schools applications are strong. (good gmat, good work exp, good gpa, good recs). I think this is where fit comes into play.

I was reading in one of the admission books that 50% (Probably very rough estimate) of each schools applications are strong. (good gmat, good work exp, good gpa, good recs). I think this is where fit comes into play.

riverripper · Answer

No it definitely could be considered a strong profile. You can have a strong profile, position yourself extremely well, but be in the wrong demographic or reaching too high. I would say to get into a top 10/15 school you have to have a strong profile but numerous of these folks get dinged by all the top 5 schools they apply to.

There is no such thing as all things equal really. Tons of people with similar profiles apply but the top folks are going to get in. Its definitely possible to get in DESPITE your essays. If someone has a 3.8 gpa from Princeton, worked for McKinsey for three years, has a 750 GMAT but horrible essays...you better believe they are getting into a top 10 school. However, someone could write Pulitzer Prize quality essays but unless they have the right profile they arent getting in. Yes in the unlikely event that two people with identical profiles apply, the one that writes the most convincing essays will get in.

Your point about fit is very true though, some essays provide much better opportunities to show fit though. I would bet most applicants could write great fit essays for Kellogg because the room they provide and the questions they ask. Remember fit also is determined by your profile not just personality. For example, an engineer is going to have a much better chance at getting into Columbia than MIT...why? Because MIT attracts many more engineering applicants than many of its peer schools. So an engineer is facing more competition from folks with similar backgrounds.

jasonc · Answer

thanks for the pointers as always, Kryzak Heres a useful thread to read about 08 ppl's school choice/fit, from the knowledge vault 103-t56765

filmcity · Answer

Sure. I did not specify what I want to do. I just told about a sector ( such as consulting , IB etc.). Moreover, I also mentioned in case that is not possible I will work in same role in different industry. Means, it was all over the place!

What I learnt is that 1. be specific, and 2. Even if one is not sure about one's goal right now, it is better to represent a well-argued one rather than writing down different options.

filmcity · Answer

I tend to agree with RR here.

In my feedback, the adcom mentioned my unclear career goal. But they also mentioned they were very happy with my capturing of the school spirit and leadership essay. So, the passion was evident. I attribute my wl and ding to following factor:

1. My goals essay and

2. Applying late: I learnt that in the first round itself the school accepted many from my demographics and the yield from that demog was also very high. I did not hear any successful application after the first round from my country in that school. So, at that point, IMHO, things beyond passion influenced admit decisions.

jasonc · Answer

awesome debrief of your ding filmcity! (+1)

Anymore 08 applicants want to share?

mbagal1 · Answer

I have two dings (HBS, Chicago) last year and I applied to only two programs (There was my first mistake

) . - No interviews. In my defense, my line of thinking was it does not make sense for me to go back to school full time if it wasn't a top school - I had always thought I would go part time anyway. However, I am increasingly realizing tht part time is not going to be practically possible for me to handle with my 4 days a week travel and possibly having a baby in the next couple of years (Im female, so my clock's ticking :-D

) Anyway - when I analyze my dings, I think just about everything was against me: 1. Average profile (decent GMAT, decent GPA, work, but nothing exceptional) combined with an older age (am 31 now) 2. Average essays. I only got them reviewed from one person and I think that was a mistake. I think I should have had them reviewed by at least 2 people to get different perspectives. Besides, I should have done a much better job of conveying my story and fit in my essays. My goals were clear, that was not the issue though. I just did not convey a good story of how I got to making that decision.

dosa_don · Answer

Well I applied to 6 schools- got 2 admits. (W/Ch/Col/K - Ding and Ross/Duke admits).

I had read a bunch of essays from fellow applicants and in fact two of my good friends had VERY similar profiles- UG from IIT/MS in the US/same GMAT/same industry function etc.

One guy got admitted to K and GSB (1) and another to K (2)- I think the difference their apps and mine were:

1. (1) had very personal essays. I believe my essays were good, solid and well written but were sort of "bland". They were too convervative. (1)'s essays were more showed more about himself and he did take experiment a bit with his style. I might have tried too much to stick to the format prescribed in all the essay books- montauk/bodine
2. Having a bunch of applicants with VERY similar backgrounds in a niche field, the stats/profile becomes more important. (1) and (2) had solid UG and MS GPA's and even career progression. My slightly better (I think) EC's could not overcome my weak GPA and so-so career progression.
3. (1) also took it a level higher- he submitted 3 recos. I think it is a risk but again- he did take it and it worked out perfectly. I definitely think that the third reco in his case added a completely different dimension to his profile that would have otherwise been difficult/impossible to bring out.

All my dings were in R2 and my admits in R1 but I dont think when you apply matters as much if you come from a common demographic- atleast that was my take on it last year. A lot of Indians were WL at GSB R1 last yr and then either admitted/dinged in R2.

In summary- try to think beyond what the books recommend. Show more passion/personal side in your essays. Dont be scared to take risks- atleast in your reach schools.

Irishfan · Answer

As I see it, the people who are applying in the upcoming season are looking for reassurance that the admissions process isn't as arbitrary and subjective as it seems. And while people have good points, e.g. essays are good differentiators, portrayal of passion is important, etc., there's no denying that MBA admissions isn't nearly as transparent and predictable as we'd like it to be.

Unfortunately, as many of the people who applied last year can confirm, getting admitted to a program isn't as easy as putting together a list of things you think the adcoms want to hear. A lot of it comes down to timing, demographics, and frankly luck. At least that's how it seems to me after following last year's application season very closely. There were some absolutely stellar people who didn't get admitted to programs in which (in my opinion) they should have been shoo-ins.

Certainly, putting together a solid application is extremely essential, but don't ignore the subjectiveness/randomness of the process. If you're dead set on going to school next year, apply to 5+ schools, make sure you play the numbers/demographic game (e.g. apply early, make sure your extracurriculars, scores, etc. come close to the standard in which you'll likely be grouped), and above all, be realistic and willing to compromise.

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