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Use of Since

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Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 25 Mar 2015, 04:31
Some Books say we are not allowed to use since(time reference) in present tense form and
I agree this rule up to some limit as this makes us differentiate between perfect tense and simple tense.

But in some sentences, I find it acceptable using since with present form, often with state verbs.

For Ex.

USA has Florida since 1914.

I see China supporting Pakistan since 2001.

similarly be form can be used (not tense specific - is, am, are)

I need your explanation as it has been a debatable topic.

Neha

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 25 Mar 2015, 10:41
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neha338 wrote:
Some Books say we are not allowed to use since(time reference) in present tense form and
I agree this rule up to some limit as this makes us differentiate between perfect tense and simple tense.

But in some sentences, I find it acceptable using since with present form, often with state verbs.

For Ex.

USA has Florida since 1914.

I see China supporting Pakistan since 2001.

similarly be form can be used (not tense specific - is, am, are)

I need your explanation as it has been a debatable topic.

Neha

Dear Neha,
My friend, think about the word "since" as a time reference. It indicates something that started in the past and continues to the present. This naturally involves the present perfect tense:
Germany has been a united nation since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Since the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, no single political entity has had control of the entire Mediterranean basin.
Since the death of Jobs in 2011, Tim Cook has been CEO of Apple.


In most instances, use of the present tense in such circumstances is a casual, colloquial usage that would not be acceptable in the formalism of the GMAT.
Germany is a united nation since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Since the death of Jobs in 2011, Tim Cook is CEO of Apple.

Those would NEVER be acceptable on the GMAT.

My friend, DO NOT create your own example sentences. Both of the example sentences you created above are problematic in a variety of ways. You are still in the process of learning: be patient with yourself. If you need example sentence, search the GMAT OG, search newspapers and magazines (which you should be reading anyway to improve your English!) Reading is the very best way to understand grammar and get a sense of how the language is used in practice. You also can ask me or any expert here for example sentences, but you are not at the point yet when you can be creating your own. Be patient with the learning process, my friend.

Does all this make sense?
Mike
_________________

Mike McGarry
Magoosh Test Prep

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Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. — William Butler Yeats (1865 – 1939)

Kudos [?]: 8730 [1], given: 105

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 25 Mar 2015, 12:47
mikemcgarry wrote:
neha338 wrote:
Some Books say we are not allowed to use since(time reference) in present tense form and
I agree this rule up to some limit as this makes us differentiate between perfect tense and simple tense.

But in some sentences, I find it acceptable using since with present form, often with state verbs.

For Ex.

USA has Florida since 1914.

I see China supporting Pakistan since 2001.

similarly be form can be used (not tense specific - is, am, are)

I need your explanation as it has been a debatable topic.

Neha

Dear Neha,
My friend, think about the word "since" as a time reference. It indicates something that started in the past and continues to the present. This naturally involves the present perfect tense:
Germany has been a united nation since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Since the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, no single political entity has had control of the entire Mediterranean basin.
Since the death of Jobs in 2011, Tim Cook has been CEO of Apple.


In most instances, use of the present tense in such circumstances is a casual, colloquial usage that would not be acceptable in the formalism of the GMAT.
Germany is a united nation since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Since the death of Jobs in 2011, Tim Cook is CEO of Apple.

Those would NEVER be acceptable on the GMAT.

My friend, DO NOT create your own example sentences. Both of the example sentences you created above are problematic in a variety of ways. You are still in the process of learning: be patient with yourself. If you need example sentence, search the GMAT OG, search newspapers and magazines (which you should be reading anyway to improve your English!) Reading is the very best way to understand grammar and get a sense of how the language is used in practice. You also can ask me or any expert here for example sentences, but you are not at the point yet when you can be creating your own. Be patient with the learning process, my friend.

Does all this make sense?
Mike


I also think using present tense with since is not acceptable.
A doubt in use of perfect led me think otherwise. That is Something that began in the past and carries into the present momen.
but present perfect does not uses any past verb; simply has does the work. So has will also do when used alone. But I was wrong as only has does not define perfect
it is past participle that does.
I have found this usage in one of our National Newspaper "The Hindu" as

Mr. Pachauri is on leave from The Energy and Resources Institute since February when the harassment case was filed against him.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Del ... 018676.ece

in addition to this I read NYT which I find best for GMAT.


NEHA

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 25 Mar 2015, 14:24
neha338 wrote:
I also think using present tense with since is not acceptable.
A doubt in use of perfect led me think otherwise. That is Something that began in the past and carries into the present momen.
but present perfect does not uses any past verb; simply has does the work. So has will also do when used alone. But I was wrong as only has does not define perfect
it is past participle that does.
I have found this usage in one of our National Newspaper "The Hindu" as

Mr. Pachauri is on leave from The Energy and Resources Institute since February when the harassment case was filed against him.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Del ... 018676.ece

in addition to this I read NYT which I find best for GMAT.

NEHA

Dear Neha,

Yes. It's important to distinguish --- in grammar, there is right vs. wrong (e.g. "I am" = right, "I are" = wrong), and separately, there are shades of gray: matters of taste, matters of formality, etc.
It's important to understand: using "since" with the present tense is not out-and-out wrong; instead, it is slightly more informal. In anything that carries a conversational tone, it is 100% acceptable. Newspapers are often in a tricky place, because they have to sell to a mass-market, so it often pays for them to be more conversation & informal, less sophisticated & stuffy-sounding. By contrast, the GMAT SC holds an exceptionally high standard of formalism. I'm one of the few people I know with more formal standards than the GMAT SC has. For most people, the GMAT SC is more formal than how they would be apt to talk, and newspapers often reflect this. The NYT is an exception: they consistently maintain a much higher standard of formalism.

My friend, I had trouble interpreting your paragraph: "A doubt in use of perfect led me think otherwise. That is Something that began in the past and carries into the present moment but present perfect does not uses any past verb; simply has does the work. So has will also do when used alone. But I was wrong as only has does not define perfect. it is past participle that does." When you are talking about words, you MUST put those words in quotes to distinguish them from the rest of the sentence. In this paragraph, I believe you are discussing the role of the word "has," but I wasn't sure because it wasn't punctuate. When I quote a word, I often put in in quotes and change the color, so highlight the fact that it is a word I am discussing, not a part of my sentence.

The words "has" and "have" are auxiliary verbs (a.k.a. helping verbs), and they determine tense.
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/auxiliary- ... -the-gmat/
The present perfect tense = "have"/"has" + [past participle]

I wonder if you are asking about this issue:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/dropping-c ... -the-gmat/

Mike :-)
_________________

Mike McGarry
Magoosh Test Prep

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Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. — William Butler Yeats (1865 – 1939)

Kudos [?]: 8730 [0], given: 105

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 26 Mar 2015, 04:13
mikemcgarry wrote:
neha338 wrote:
I also think using present tense with since is not acceptable.
A doubt in use of perfect led me think otherwise. That is Something that began in the past and carries into the present momen.
but present perfect does not uses any past verb; simply has does the work. So has will also do when used alone. But I was wrong as only has does not define perfect
it is past participle that does.
I have found this usage in one of our National Newspaper "The Hindu" as

Mr. Pachauri is on leave from The Energy and Resources Institute since February when the harassment case was filed against him.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Del ... 018676.ece

in addition to this I read NYT which I find best for GMAT.

NEHA

Dear Neha,

Yes. It's important to distinguish --- in grammar, there is right vs. wrong (e.g. "I am" = right, "I are" = wrong), and separately, there are shades of gray: matters of taste, matters of formality, etc.
It's important to understand: using "since" with the present tense is not out-and-out wrong; instead, it is slightly more informal. In anything that carries a conversational tone, it is 100% acceptable. Newspapers are often in a tricky place, because they have to sell to a mass-market, so it often pays for them to be more conversation & informal, less sophisticated & stuffy-sounding. By contrast, the GMAT SC holds an exceptionally high standard of formalism. I'm one of the few people I know with more formal standards than the GMAT SC has. For most people, the GMAT SC is more formal than how they would be apt to talk, and newspapers often reflect this. The NYT is an exception: they consistently maintain a much higher standard of formalism.

My friend, I had trouble interpreting your paragraph: "A doubt in use of perfect led me think otherwise. That is Something that began in the past and carries into the present moment but present perfect does not uses any past verb; simply has does the work. So has will also do when used alone. But I was wrong as only has does not define perfect. it is past participle that does." When you are talking about words, you MUST put those words in quotes to distinguish them from the rest of the sentence. In this paragraph, I believe you are discussing the role of the word "has," but I wasn't sure because it wasn't punctuate. When I quote a word, I often put in in quotes and change the color, so highlight the fact that it is a word I am discussing, not a part of my sentence.

The words "has" and "have" are auxiliary verbs (a.k.a. helping verbs), and they determine tense.
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/auxiliary- ... -the-gmat/
The present perfect tense = "have"/"has" + [past participle]

I wonder if you are asking about this issue:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2013/dropping-c ... -the-gmat/

Mike :-)



I have just written everything without any clarity. To be precise
why can't be raplace has with is in sentences like
The action has been performed can be replaced with the action is been performed.
though I have never used is with been and I am unable to get the logic behind it.

Neha

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Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 26 Mar 2015, 04:17
The inmates of Arizona state prison who are selected by the state forest department to work as wilderness firefighters eat in the same cafeterias, sleep in the same campsites, and wear the same uniforms as their professional counterparts do, defying the rigid relationship barriers enforced inside prison walls.

I really don't understand defying is verb of inmates right???

A. defying the rigid relationship barriers enforced
B. defying the relationship barriers enforced rigidly
C. they defy the rigid relationship barriers enforced
D. an arrangement to defy the relationship barriers that are enforced rigidly
Correct E. an arrangement that defies the rigid relationship barriers enforced ????

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 26 Mar 2015, 10:27
neha338 wrote:
I have just written everything without any clarity. To be precise
why can't be raplace has with is in sentences like
The action has been performed can be replaced with the action is been performed.
though I have never used is with been and I am unable to get the logic behind it.

Neha

Neha,
With all due respect, you are still making the same mistake. You are typing the words you are saying and the words you are discussing without break. That's extremely confusing.

Confusing: In the subjunctive, we use be where we would expect is because be is the infinitive form of is.
Clear: In the subjunctive, we use "be" where we would expect "is" because "be" is the infinitive form of "is".
Do you understand how the words I am discussing are set off in quotes, separate from the words I am simply saying?

I am going to ask you to write your request like this. Part of being a good student is understanding how to present clear and unambiguous questions.

Mike :-)
_________________

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Magoosh Test Prep

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Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. — William Butler Yeats (1865 – 1939)

Kudos [?]: 8730 [0], given: 105

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 26 Mar 2015, 10:45
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purevsurenn wrote:
The inmates of Arizona state prison who are selected by the state forest department to work as wilderness firefighters eat in the same cafeterias, sleep in the same campsites, and wear the same uniforms as their professional counterparts do, defying the rigid relationship barriers enforced inside prison walls.

I really don't understand defying is verb of inmates right???

A. defying the rigid relationship barriers enforced
B. defying the relationship barriers enforced rigidly
C. they defy the rigid relationship barriers enforced
D. an arrangement to defy the relationship barriers that are enforced rigidly
Correct E. an arrangement that defies the rigid relationship barriers enforced ????

Dear purevsurenn,
My friend, I am happy to help. :-)

First of all, when you post a question, PLEASE cite the source. Who wrote this question? In what source does it appear? Not all GMAT SC practice questions are created equal. Some are superb, and some are abysmal. It's very important for me to know the source.

This appears to be a very good question. I was unable to locate the source.

The word "defying" is NOT a verb. It is not a full verb capable of acting as the main verb of a sentence or clause. It is a verb form. In particular, it is a participle:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/participle ... -the-gmat/
A participle can be a noun-modifier. Ordinarily, if we have the structure
[SUBJECT][VERB]object],[participle]...
then the participle modifies the subject, and the subject is the implied actor of the action of the participle.

What is beautiful about choice (A) in this question is that it's 100% grammatically correct but logically flawed. There's absolutely no mistake in grammar, but the sentence implies that the inmates themselves were doing the "defying." This is not the correct meaning. The inmates themselves are just doing what they are allowed to do: they are not defying anyone. It's the overall arrangement here, between the prison system and the park service, that "[defies] the rigid relationship barriers enforced prison walls." In other words, the actor of the participle "defying" does not appear before the comma: it's merely implied, without being stated explicitly. Therefore, we have to create a word:
http://magoosh.com/gmat/2012/gmat-sente ... te-a-word/
That's why (E) is the best answer here.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
_________________

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Magoosh Test Prep

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Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. — William Butler Yeats (1865 – 1939)

Kudos [?]: 8730 [1], given: 105

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 27 Mar 2015, 23:47
mikemcgarry wrote:
neha338 wrote:
I have just written everything without any clarity. To be precise
why can't be raplace has with is in sentences like
The action has been performed can be replaced with the action is been performed.
though I have never used is with been and I am unable to get the logic behind it.

Neha

Neha,
With all due respect, you are still making the same mistake. You are typing the words you are saying and the words you are discussing without break. That's extremely confusing.

Confusing: In the subjunctive, we use be where we would expect is because be is the infinitive form of is.
Clear: In the subjunctive, we use "be" where we would expect "is" because "be" is the infinitive form of "is".
Do you understand how the words I am discussing are set off in quotes, separate from the words I am simply saying?

I am going to ask you to write your request like this. Part of being a good student is understanding how to present clear and unambiguous questions.

Mike :-)



I am sorry for this shoddy writing. I was confused in differentiating 'has' with 'be verbs' when first used in perfect sentences and second in passive voice.
though I am now out of this as I think. 'Be' is for exist and 'has' for possession. But sometimes interchanging one with other, mostly in colloquial forms, seems natural.
I want your reply on this.

Neha

Kudos [?]: 1 [0], given: 5

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Re: Use of Since [#permalink]

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New post 30 Mar 2015, 11:35
neha338 wrote:

I am sorry for this shoddy writing. I was confused in differentiating 'has' with 'be verbs' when first used in perfect sentences and second in passive voice.
though I am now out of this as I think. 'Be' is for exist and 'has' for possession. But sometimes interchanging one with other, mostly in colloquial forms, seems natural.
I want your reply on this.

Neha

Neha,
OK, I am still not 100% what you are asking, but you are asking a lot.

It's true that, as a full verb, the verb "is" denotes existence and the verb "has" denotes possession. Both of these can be used as auxiliary verbs, and those usages have absolutely nothing to do with their use as full verbs.

Consider the intransitive verb "to go" and the transitive verb "to sell," both of which have irregular forms in the past & participle.

Present, Active:
He goes to school.
He sells these boxes.


Present Progressive, Active:
He is going to school.
He is selling these boxes.


Simple Past, Active:
He went to school.
He sold these boxes.


Present Prefect, Active:
He has gone to school.
He has sold these boxes.


Past Prefect, Active:
He had gone to school.
He had sold these boxes.


Now, the passive voice forms. We can only do this with the transitive verb "to sell."
Present, Passive:
These boxes are sold.

Present Progressive, Passive:
These boxes are being sold.

Simple Past, Passive:
These boxes were sold.

Present Perfect, Passive:
These boxes have been sold.

Past Perfect, Passive:
These boxes had been sold.

I don't know whether this answers your question, or begins to answer you question. Please let me know where your uncertainty lies.

Mike :-)
_________________

Mike McGarry
Magoosh Test Prep

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Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire. — William Butler Yeats (1865 – 1939)

Kudos [?]: 8730 [0], given: 105

Re: Use of Since   [#permalink] 30 Mar 2015, 11:35
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