What about me!? Unique Situation

Question

Im wondering if someone could take a look and suggest what my chances are and what I should do to get to my goal; MBA starting 2007 at one of the top 15 Harvard is my reach with NYU and Darden as schools I would love to attend. Any other suggestions regarding school choice are also welcome 

Profile 

Age: 25 
Background: Born and raised in South Asia. Moved to US for Undergrad education and stayed on (Now a US Citizen) 
Education: Undergrad at University of Virginia. BA in Psych +Econ 
GPA: Low because I was puttnig myself through school (part time job/loans) and was active in the community. ended school with 2.91. Highest was 3.3 in final semester. Low Grades in some of the analytical courses (Accounting, Math) 
Undergrad Extracurric: Resident Advisor, President of Residence Halls, President of South Asian Cultural club, Mentor for Madison House Community 
Work: Work at one of the Big Three Auto. Started as a manufacturing supervisor for two years, managing about 40 union workers in different roles, including engineering & maintenance. Switched over to marketing as a sales and forecasting analyst at the end of last year. Working on developing new methods of tracking marketing programs and thier successes, also pitching new ideas backed by data. Inloved in organizing company sponsored events. 
GMAT: first try was 650. giving it again and target is 740. 
Extracurric: Actively Inloved in autocross racing 

Not sure if i can think of anything else. Again my goal is general management, the MBA will allow me to hone my finance skills and work in Corp finance before hitting my final goal of being Regional Head someday of an Auto Company. 

Pls suggest anything I can do between now and October till the apps are due. As i mentioned, HBS would be a dream come true.

Hjort · Answer

Just curious, why is HBS your dream school? 

I would take a closer look at Michigan and Northwestern/Kellogg.

fssblue · Answer

Heres why:

1. Global recognition & brand, since I do not plan to limit myself to the US, I feel a very important criteria is that the school is globally recognized and honestly HBS is up there
2. General Management, HBS seems to create excellent general managers and that is the career path id like to pursue in the auto industry.
3. Impressive alumni, all HBS alumni that i have interacted with have impressed me in a way that no other alumni from any other school have. They are outspoken, confident, yet compassionate and amicable. Granted correlation doesnt mean causation, but Id like to be part of a program where individuals display these characteristics
4. Case study, Im all about that method of learning. Personally I get more out of it than I do from any other style of learning. Again, there are other schools that teach this way (Darden which i am considering), I contend that HBS mastered this
5. Boston... need i say more?
6. Close proximity to NYC, as i want to spend my first few years out of Bschool in that city, close proximity with allow networking opportunities that a school like Michigan may not
7. CEO's HBS produces more CEO's than any other school out there... and honestly since id like to take a stab at it, why not have a name to back me up

I cant think of anything else.. though I am looking forward to your response to this and to my profile.

Out of curiosity, why did you suggest Mich and Kellogg?

Regards,

Hjort · Answer

I cannot really go very far critiquing someone's reasons for liking a particular school, especially if that school is HBS. HBS is easily the most successful producer of CEOs of major corporations and (logically enough) has an outstanding alumni base. HBS is a logical choice for general management but if you know how to meet and engage your peers, virtually any ultra elite should give you the head start you need toward the executive suite. 

Regarding your profile, there is a potential academic risk with the low GPA combined with (relatively) low GMAT. I would have to see how you market your profile in your essays to get a better sense of it. 

I picked Michigan and Kellogg mainly because they have strong reputations for general management.

fssblue · Answer

Actually i had one more question.... does it matter if you are paying full for the mba or if you are in need of financial assistance. Granted most schools state that they are need blind, but wouldnt it work in someones favor if they didnt need financial aid (After all, a school is a business entity and profitability is one of the criteria for its success......

Hjort · Answer

For FT MBA programs, this is not really a concern. After all, the financial assistance often takes the form of a loan so the schools still get their money. 

If you have not already done so, it is a good idea to post your question on different discussion boards to get a diverse set of opinions. 

What are the schools you are presently considering for your portfolio?

fssblue · Answer

Thanks for the reply.

The schools I am considering are as follows:
Stretch: HBS, Columbia
Others: UVA, NYU, Mich, Kellogg, Cornell

If i get into any one of these schools there is no question that Id accept in a heartbeat. Do you have thoughts/comments/recommendations regarding this selection?

Hjort · Answer

I would revise your taxonomy slightly from Stretch/Other to the cluster. 

Thus I would write it as

Ultra Elite: HBS, Columbia, Kellogg
Elite: UVA, NYU, Mich, Cornell 

I would strongly consider adding Duke. 

Could you provide your opt-out rationale for the balance of the ultra elites?

Antmavel · Answer

Why not Tuck ? 
It's not only because I am the Tuck Ambassador but in my opinion it's more logical than UVA. I know you are interested in Business Cases but Tuck is offering an excellent GM Program. I would also point out the fact that not all the subjects are easier to explain and to understand through Business Cases, think also about this too. 
If you are sure about your GM Career, you could get rid of NYU and keep UVA in the case you don't want to apply to too many schools. NYU is nice but I dont' think it's really suitable for a GM Career. I know quite well the school, I was on the waiting list there this year but I chose to cancel my application because I realized that it may be well known among people but it was less respected and wanted than the Tuck degree among recruitors in different sectors of activity. NYU is great if you really plan to work in something linked with finance.

Honnestly, I understand you want to stay around NY/Boston but Wharton is an excellent school and you can barely do anything after that program. In my opinion HBS is first because it has such an incredible reputation but if you look after that Wharton is the only school where you will be able to accept any job at the highest level (PE,IB, Consulting, GM,...) so I think that you should consider that too.

fssblue · Answer

Why not Tuck...hmm you put forward some interesting points, but heres the fundamental question. Do i have what it takes to get there? Specifically is my undergrad record something that can be overlooked by this institution? Im sure you (and others reading this post) will think that I am giving HBS a shot so why not Tuck. My point is this, if i am going to take a swing in the air, why not make it a big one and give it all I have and see what happens? If i take that approach it will consume significant time and energy and I feel id rather devote such resources to the school i would give an arm and a leg for.... in this case HBS.

On the contrary if you make compelling points, taking into account my background, about a specific school (Tuck or any other) i should consider, id be curiuous to hear what you have to say and why in my case id have a chance!

Thanks!

Hjort · Answer

Since the Northeast is such an important economic zone, you will find that all of the ultra elites have a strong presence there. You need not limit yourself to schools in Northeast to find high level employment in New York. 

Considering your stated criteria, among the elite cluster schools I agree that Dartmouth/Tuck deserves a very close look. 

I strongly encourage students to look beyond applying exclusively to schools in geographic regions they actually like. Often the schools in cold, isolated, or otherwise "unattractive" places make the best admissions bargains.

Antmavel · Answer

150% agree !!!

Ozmba · Answer

I can think of "CORNELL" in this case ,though it is an Ivy League .wonder how many applicants would really wanna spend time in Ithica with sub zero temperatures

Cheers

fssblue · Answer

I have to say that I do agree whole heartedly with all your comments about location. I certainly would love to be located in the North East, but I am willing to sacrifice that for a good education that I would have to obtain at a location that isnt favorable (Cornell, TUCK). Given the suggestions in this post, I have been reading about Tuck and I find that it offers a close knit feeling of community since the class size is small. The only counterpoint to that is that the Alumni base, therefore, is smaller than other schools.

Also, to a point made above about the Case Method. I agree that this methodoly doesnt encompass all possible methods of imparting knowledge and therefore may not capture some key learnings that are better imparted in a more traditional style. However, and this is solely my point of view, Case Methods offer a style of learning that is similar to how executives and managers of business units would make decisions. As a leader/manager, you cannot possibly know everything about everything to make a great decision. You need to learn to understand the key elements and reason through how they impact the business. The case method teaches you to manage or decide this way. Once again, Id love to hear your opinions on this...

Back to B-schools, are there any other points about Tuck I should know about? How does it stack up against UVA in your opinions?

Hjort · Answer

Darden and Tuck are in the same cluster and have roughly the same prestige. Tuck has more presence outside the US while Darden has a broader alumni base in the US.

A long time ago we discussed the case method.
https://www.gmatclub.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=12795

The case method can be a very useful teaching device and help students visualize problems. The problem is that business cases are often caricatures of real business problems. Since cases often rely heavily on the involvement of the corporation in question, one should at least consider whether the information presented in the cases is complete and unbiased. Further, cases can provide a limited view of management techniques since one does not have access to all the cases that might be valuable- some corporations will simply refuse to cooperate. For those interested in developing new approaches to management, cases can be depressingly retrospective- it is a bit like trying to develop novel products by limiting one's development efforts to examining those products that already exist on the marketplace.

fssblue · Answer

Interesting points you highlight.. one other thing that came to mind is that the Case Method actually benefits only those with TypeA personalities. After all, it will be difficult for someone who is shy or not confident to truly add value to a discussion when they are cold called. Furthermore, given how competitive the environment is, im not sure whether it is the correct venue for such individuals to develop a sense of confidence. The counter point is that Bschools probably dont select many such individuals as they need bold and confident people that would add value to the class.

Another thing im wondering, In your opinion, which schools offers the best value for money in terms of prestige, global presence and marketability?

Hjort · Answer

An important point to keep in mind is that an MBA, even at the ultra elite/elite/top cluster Europe level, is not a panacea. While I am clearly a proponent of these schools, one must recognize that such a degree is neither a sufficient nor a necessary condition for becoming an effective leader or communicator at the very highest levels of the corporate world. It is tempting sometimes to think that graduates of a particular school or level of school will necessarily or characteristically have certain traits (strong leaders, confident speakers, etc.) but one can find far too many counter examples to maintain this point for long. I've come across many MBAs from top cluster schools with strong case study traditions who were remarkably bad at public speaking and presentations. These individuals aslo seemed particularly uncomfortable when analyzing factually ambiguous situations. I have also come across many MBAs from schools with strong quant traditions that seeemed to have a difficult time performing relatively simple calculations despite their education. 

Traditionally, some of the best values in terms of pecuniary outlay have been the public elite schools (UCB, UCLA, Mich, UVA) especially for in-state residents. In terms of oppty cost, the top cluster PT and one year programs have strong values.

aroman21 · Answer

Well if you are going to discount Cornell for the weather you might as well discount Tuck, and of course it isn't that warm in good old boston, chicago or NYC either!

All of the schools you have in mind are excellent!!!! I'm headed to Cornell in the fall and can field any specific Cornell questions you may have. The school is a small b-school model, but what we don't have in Johnson (the name of our b-school) numbers we make up in the devotion of our alums as well as the entire Cornell University alumni base. Cornellians are pretty good to each other, regardless of the school they attended.

Cornell is known for it's "hands on learning" approach, the school has several immersions that you take the second semester of your 1st year that focus on what you want to do after b-school. Below is the link for the managerial finance immersion.

https://www.johnson.cornell.edu/academic ... in_im.html

All the schools you mentioned are excellent, but their cultures are very different. Think about what type of setting you would like to do your b-school at, personally after 6 years in a big city I wanted something more calm, esp since I'll be back in a big city post-MBA.

Cheers,
aroman21

Ozmba2006
Manager

Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 97
Location: Sydney
Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hjort wrote:

Often the schools in cold, isolated, or otherwise "unattractive" places make the best admissions bargains
.

I can think of "CORNELL" in this case ,though it is an Ivy League .wonder how many applicants would really wanna spend time in Ithica with sub zero temperatures

Cheers

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Antmavel · Answer

Obviously I don't want to be biased, I applied to both schools, it was a little strange because Darden totally ignored my application (denied without Interview) whereas Tuck accepted me. Even more surprising : Darden was actually the only school that I chose to get an information session and I had a solid contact there with a french 2007 student and with several french alumni... However there is a slight difference, I still believe that Darden is now more in General Management than Tuck, even if the Tuck Program is a GM one people should notice the larger number of finance positions got by Tuck graduates, much more than before. I've been surprised to listen that many of the Tuck 2007 got internships in Investment Banking... Note that both programs have the toughest 1st year among all MBA in terms of workload :roll:

Antmavel · Answer

Nice

By the way, I attended Tuck's Admission Weekend so I had the opportunity to check out the place before my final move, I must admit that it's totally lost because it is located in Hanover (10,000 people including the students) and around this there is nothing except some trees and some grass... :roll:

However it depends on your goals, concerning myself : - I've lived in Paris, Shanghai (18M people) and Shenzhen (10M people) during my last 8 years so I was more than happy to find a quiet place to recharge my batteries and to rest myself for 2 years - I wanted to feel the real power of a community and I think that if I had moved to NYU (waitlisted) I would have been distracted too much by the city of New York an by its possibiliies... - I can understand people complaining about being always with the same people, or missing some city attractions but I disagree with calling Tuck a "tough place" in relation with recruiting and hiring process because Hanover is in NH and only 2 hours from Boston and 4 from NY, there are places more remote than this for sure...moreover we are not going to receive hiring offers everyday so I think that it's not a big issue to make a move once a week to meet with recruiters - Another usual weak point given to Tuck is that it is too far to attract CEO and Managing directors for some talks, disucssions and presentation of their companies/strategies, maybe it's true and maybe some leaders only come once per year whereas they may go to Columbia every 4 months but something that is sure is that when people come to Tuck they usually stay for the day including introduction to company, strategy, lunches, Q&A, hiring process... :wink:

So this weak point is also a an advantage sometimes, and this is true for many other schools, not only Tuck, Darden too for example... Anyway, don't forget that the rankings are not everything therefore the most important thing to consider is : what do you want to do after your MBA ? If you know exactly your future career it will help you but if you don't know don't panic, you can choose schools with a general program and then make your selection with other criteria (case method, city vs remote area, number of students, international exchanges, ...). 2 important points to remember : 1) Even if you do know what you want to do after your MBA you will also discover a lot of interesting paths during your time at the school and many students change their mind after exploring some new possibilities for MBA graduates so keep your mind open. 2) If you are a changing-career person, the number of students is very important because it will bemore complicated to get some help and some assistance from the MBA Career Office if you are 600 students than if you are 200... Good luck Antoine

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