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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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2021mbacand wrote:
Is it crazy that I disagree with this?

US News heavily weights starting salary and employment % which really are the two reasons most people get MBAs. This ranking sorta ignores Anderson's slip in both and negatively weights some schools like Tepper, Johnson, and McDonough with better stats in both.


Hi. No, not crazy.... but what do you mean by "this"? :blushing:
I have not changed the US News Methodology https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... ethodology :cool: I simply applied proportionate reported to the test scores and admissions %. I realize it was a long read but curious what you disagree with :-)

P.S. I agree that employment numbers are important by the way. US news puts 35% on the Employment-related items such how many people had jobs at graduation, at 3 months, and their salary. The ranking potentially penalizes schools that are in cheaper states such as Texas vs those in major metro areas such as New York since there is no cost of living adjustment.
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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Was the GPA weighting also adjusted? It's mentioned that the 16.25% for the GMAT has been adjusted, but it looks like the GPA has been as well - for example, Ross has a 3.45, Fuqua has a 3.5, and Stern has a 3.6 but they are all ranked the same.

The GMAT weighting is a difficult route to take in all honesty. Some programs take a higher percentage of incoming students from India/China in order to increase GMAT/GRE averages - and similarly, those programs report a much smaller percentage of domestic GPAs; the combination of the two looks "better" rankings wise. Applicants can also submit both types of exam, and we have no way to differentiate between those that did and those that did not, other than looking at the individual class profiles. At Stern for example, you have quite a few JD/MBA applicants which are included in the class profile - the % that took LSAT is not reported in the rankings. I also disagree that the admit rate should be recalibrated - there is no indication that applicants who did not submit test scores were less likely to get in, and the recalibration is based off the incoming class rather than the applicant pool, which further invalidates the data. It absolutely makes sense that Wharton and Sloan should use this year's data for the ranking though.

Edit: Numbers on the assessments seem off as well.

Edit2: I did some napkin math on the rankings - with a few assumptions for the M7 (same GRE/GMAT %, as CBS, Kellogg, and Booth do not disclose) and fixed the recruiter and peer scores, which may have been from last year or mixed up between the two categories. (Haas and CBS are just swapped, Darden is way too high, Anderson does not have the same scores as USC, etc.)

No points were given to schools with no "reporting" in the GMAT/GRE. Which is a bit extreme IMO, because it essentially implies that if the candidates did not take the exam, they would score equivalently as the lowest ranking school. Perhaps if it was in place beforehand, all schools would've done so, instead of staying above the 75% threshold which USN begins to penalize at. I'm of the opinion that the GRE is a backdoor to MBA admissions in the first place, and many schools have reported a double digit increase in the exam last year. (Tuck had 39% GRE this year with an average score which converts to 640, for example, Ross had 37% with a 610)

Rank School Points
1 GSB 94
2 Wharton 93
3 Booth 92
3 HBS 92
5 Kellogg 91
5 Sloan 91
7 CBS 88
8 Haas 87
8 SOM 87
10 Tuck 86
11 Fuqua 84
12 Stern 83
13 Ross 82
14 Darden 81
15 Johnson 80
16 Anderson 79

Originally posted by MBASomeTime on 22 Apr 2021, 14:18.
Last edited by MBASomeTime on 22 Apr 2021, 21:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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Sexy stuff, bb!

NOTE to the readers: If we had another decimal place on GPA, Peer Assessment and Recruiter Assessment we could have probably gotten rid of all the ties (at least in the top 20).

2nd NOTE to the readers: Putting 40% of the ranking in (1) what peers thought about each other and (2) what alumni (who, generally are the ones who go to a school to recruit at it) say about the current round of graduates from their school ... is ... well ... more than a bit biased. Personally, I think it's ludicrous and one of the reasons I agreed to build the rankings for GMATClub last year (and am doing it again this year; nearly done, btw).
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
bb Didn't look at the table of stats in detail but I could see that the Haas employment numbers are way off! The table reports 68% got jobs at graduation and 83% 3 months post-graduation, but the actual numbers in the Haas employment report are 76.4% and 89.5%? What's the reasoning behind this (if any)?

And to the point that Regenerate made about peer and recruiter (not all of whom are alums, btw) scores being biased, sure but having 16.25% allocated to standardized scores doesn't make much sense either. It encourages schools to pad their stats, without necessarily creating a better MBA program overall, the most obvious case in point being Yale. Yale above Haas and Tuck is laughable.
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
bb wrote:
2021mbacand wrote:
Is it crazy that I disagree with this?

US News heavily weights starting salary and employment % which really are the two reasons most people get MBAs. This ranking sorta ignores Anderson's slip in both and negatively weights some schools like Tepper, Johnson, and McDonough with better stats in both.


Hi. No, not crazy.... but what do you mean by "this"? :blushing:
I have not changed the US News Methodology https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... ethodology :cool: I simply applied proportionate reported to the test scores and admissions %. I realize it was a long read but curious what you disagree with :-)

P.S. I agree that employment numbers are important by the way. US news puts 35% on the Employment-related items such how many people had jobs at graduation, at 3 months, and their salary. The ranking potentially penalizes schools that are in cheaper states such as Texas vs those in major metro areas such as New York since there is no cost of living adjustment.



The employers pay the same everywhere. I just don't see how Anderson deserves 16 when they flopped so hard.
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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variantguy wrote:
bb Didn't look at the table of stats in detail but I could see that the Haas employment numbers are way off! The table reports 68% got jobs at graduation and 83% 3 months post-graduation, but the actual numbers in the Haas employment report are 76.4% and 89.5%? What's the reasoning behind this (if any)?

And to the point that Regenerate made about peer and recruiter (not all of whom are alums, btw) scores being biased, sure but having 16.25% allocated to standardized scores doesn't make much sense either. It encourages schools to pad their stats, without necessarily creating a better MBA program overall, the most obvious case in point being Yale. Yale above Haas and Tuck is laughable.


Thank you variantguy. The data has been "normalized" (I think that is the right term?)
Meaning the data you see in the table above is AFTER it was converted into a percentile data by taking the biggest number in the range and smallest and dividing them into 100 parts. So 0.83 does not mean that 83% got jobs 3 months after graduation. This means that when compared to all other programs, Haas was ranked as 83rd percentile. I can also post some of the exact data but that has to be normalized before it can be used for rankings calculations. I hope it is somewhat clear :| sorry if I confused anyone...
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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I don't disagree about the Anderson flip but this is the US News Rankings and how they chose to weigh things. It definitely weighed Anderson down. They scored in the 59th percentile for employed at graduation and 71st employed 3 months after. Their comp numbers are 82nd percentile when it comes to salary so they were not penalized there.

I can tell you that all west-coast schools took a beating in their placement numbers this year. Stanford ranked 57th percentile for Employed at Graduation. Haas was 68th percentile. So technically, Anderson was ahead of Stanford there... :dazed

Anyway, as a matter of experiment, and to check how elastic the model is, I just tried to run a few scenarios with employment numbers for Anderson and tried a few scenarios to see what impact employment numbers have on the rankings. In my trial spreadsheet I tried a scenario where Anderson gets AVERAGE TOP 15 numbers which is 74th percentile for employed at graduation and 85th percentile 3 months after (which is a meaningful bump for them). That would improve their ranking by only 1 rank. They would get Spot #15. Which is surprising for this much of a difference. But it indicates that perhaps US News Ranking methodology is not that great for changes to employment numbers. That is why Regenerate has been working on the GMAT Club's rankings. You can see last year's results here: https://gmatclub.com/forum/gmat-club-mb ... 35846.html and he may publish something based on this data as well ;-)

P.S. To clarify specifically Anderson - my adjustments of GMAT scores and Admission percentages did not impact Anderson much at all since Anderson has reported 99% of their applicants with GMAT and GRE scores and thus their scores were captured properly in the rankings. Other schools on the other hand, did see bigger score adjustments because of partial reports of GMAT/GRE rankings. So in other words, I did not bump up Anderson... rather several programs were bumped down though not by that much in the Top 20.

Here are the score multipliers that affected each of the programs. As a reminder, this means that the GMAT/GRE Score weight of a particular program was adjusted down by this factor. Sloan and Wharton were adjusted by 0.17 with an explanation provided in the original post why that number. Also note that if a school has a factor of -0.50, it does not mean its rank was adjusted by 50% down. It just means its scores normalized calculation was adjusted 50% down which ranks differently and likely higher. E.g. Marsha's -0.43 adjustment changed its Score Rank from 89th percentile to 50th percentile. Again, as a reminder, the Score component is 16.25% in the US News Rankings. No changes have been made to the weights of individual categories.

Old US News RankMBA ProgramIncomplete Score Factor
1Stanford University (CA)0
2University of Pennsylvania (Wharton)¹-0.17
3University of Chicago (Booth) (IL)0
4Northwestern University (Kellogg) (IL)0
5Harvard University (MA)0
5Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan)¹-0.17
7University of California--Berkeley (Haas)-0.1
7Columbia University (NY)-0.16
9Yale University (CT)-0.02
10New York University (Stern)-0.18
10Dartmouth College (Tuck) (NH)0
12Duke University (Fuqua) (NC)-0.05
13University of Virginia (Darden)-0.16
13University of Michigan--Ann Arbor (Ross)-0.03
15Cornell University (Johnson) (NY)-0.14
16University of Southern California (Marshall)-0.43
16Carnegie Mellon University (Tepper) (PA)-0.33
18University of California--Los Angeles (Anderson)-0.01
18University of Texas--Austin (McCombs)-0.17
20University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill (Kenan-Flagler)-0.52



2021mbacand wrote:
bb wrote:
2021mbacand wrote:
Is it crazy that I disagree with this?

US News heavily weights starting salary and employment % which really are the two reasons most people get MBAs. This ranking sorta ignores Anderson's slip in both and negatively weights some schools like Tepper, Johnson, and McDonough with better stats in both.


Hi. No, not crazy.... but what do you mean by "this"? :blushing:
I have not changed the US News Methodology https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... ethodology :cool: I simply applied proportionate reported to the test scores and admissions %. I realize it was a long read but curious what you disagree with :-)

P.S. I agree that employment numbers are important by the way. US news puts 35% on the Employment-related items such how many people had jobs at graduation, at 3 months, and their salary. The ranking potentially penalizes schools that are in cheaper states such as Texas vs those in major metro areas such as New York since there is no cost of living adjustment.



The employers pay the same everywhere. I just don't see how Anderson deserves 16 when they flopped so hard.
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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Thank you for your question!

No GPA adjustments were made. I have used US News Data and they report 2 decimal points:
Stern: 3.60
Ross: 3.45
Fuqua: 3.50

However!!! in a few schools (Stern being one of them) the data was somehow taking the numbers from adjacent cells in an unexplainable manner so I found a calculation mistake that was using adjacent cells. So I really appreciate you pointing it out. The calculation mistake also impacted the peer assessment score but not others :shock:

I have rerun the data and checked each cell multiple times now to make sure this error does not happen any other programs (Sorry about this)

While the error forced a recalculation for 2 programs in the Top 20, notably Stern, Haas, Columbia and Marshall, the change in one school also impacts others in profound ways. Meaning, changing Stern, does not only make it go up down but also impacts other schools and thus HBS slide to Spot #3 and now tied with Kellogg. Stern moved up to spot #11 and tied with Fuqua and Marshall stayed unchanged however.


MBASomeTime wrote:
Was the GPA weighting also adjusted? It's mentioned that the 16.25% for the GMAT has been adjusted, but it looks like the GPA has been as well - for example, Ross has a 3.45, Fuqua has a 3.5, and Stern has a 3.6 but they are all ranked the same.

The GMAT weighting is a difficult route to take in all honesty. Some programs take a higher percentage of incoming students from India/China in order to increase GMAT/GRE averages - and similarly, those programs report a much smaller percentage of domestic GPAs; the combination of the two looks "better" rankings wise. Applicants can also submit both types of exam, and we have no way to differentiate between those that did and those that did not, other than looking at the individual class profiles. At Stern for example, you have quite a few JD/MBA applicants which are included in the class profile - the % that took LSAT is not reported in the rankings. I also disagree that the admit rate should be recalibrated - there is no indication that applicants who did not submit test scores were less likely to get in, and the recalibration is based off the incoming class rather than the applicant pool, which further invalidates the data. It absolutely makes sense that Wharton and Sloan should use this year's data for the ranking though.

Edit: Numbers on the assessments seem off as well.

Edit2: I did some napkin math on the rankings - with a few assumptions for the M7 (same GRE/GMAT %, as CBS, Kellogg, and Booth do not disclose) and fixed the recruiter and peer scores, which may have been from last year or mixed up between the two categories. (Haas and CBS are just swapped, Darden is way too high, Anderson does not have the same scores as USC, etc.)

No points were given to schools with no "reporting" in the GMAT/GRE. Which is a bit extreme IMO, because it essentially implies that if the candidates did not take the exam, they would score equivalently as the lowest ranking school. Perhaps if it was in place beforehand, all schools would've done so, instead of staying above the 75% threshold which USN begins to penalize at. I'm of the opinion that the GRE is a backdoor to MBA admissions in the first place, and many schools have reported a double digit increase in the exam last year. (Tuck had 39% GRE this year with an average score which converts to 640, for example, Ross had 37% with a 610)

Rank School Points
1 GSB 94
2 Wharton 93
3 Booth 92
3 HBS 92
5 Kellogg 91
5 Sloan 91
7 CBS 88
8 Haas 87
8 SOM 87
10 Tuck 86
11 Fuqua 84
12 Stern 83
13 Ross 82
14 Darden 81
15 Johnson 80
16 Anderson 79
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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Thank you again MBASomeTime for spotting an error in the data! That was my purpose for providing the data to give more people the tools to evaluate and review the calculations!
I have updated the numbers and re-posted the rankings.... maybe I should call it The should have been should have been rankings :blushing:


The Revised Top 10

US News Top 10 v2.0 Rankings
RankSchool
1Stanford
2Booth
3Harvard
3Kellogg
5Wharton*
6MIT Sloan*
7Haas
7Yale SOM
9Columbia
9Tuck
11Stern
11Fuqua
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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bb wrote:
variantguy wrote:
bb Didn't look at the table of stats in detail but I could see that the Haas employment numbers are way off! The table reports 68% got jobs at graduation and 83% 3 months post-graduation, but the actual numbers in the Haas employment report are 76.4% and 89.5%? What's the reasoning behind this (if any)?

And to the point that Regenerate made about peer and recruiter (not all of whom are alums, btw) scores being biased, sure but having 16.25% allocated to standardized scores doesn't make much sense either. It encourages schools to pad their stats, without necessarily creating a better MBA program overall, the most obvious case in point being Yale. Yale above Haas and Tuck is laughable.


Thank you variantguy. The data has been "normalized" (I think that is the right term?)
Meaning the data you see in the table above is AFTER it was converted into a percentile data by taking the biggest number in the range and smallest and dividing them into 100 parts. So 0.83 does not mean that 83% got jobs 3 months after graduation. This means that when compared to all other programs, Haas was ranked as 83rd percentile. I can also post some of the exact data but that has to be normalized before it can be used for rankings calculations. I hope it is somewhat clear :| sorry if I confused anyone...


I still don't get it I think. If I understand correctly, after normalization, the school that performed the best should get a score of 1 and the worst should get 0, right? That doesn't seem to be the case for the "% employed at graduation column" - North Carolina at the top got a 0.93, which doesn't make sense because there's no seven-way tie. Also, the worst-performing schools in five out of eight categories haven't been given a score of 0!! Feels like it defeats the purpose of normalizaiton.
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]
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No problem. It is important to get to the bottom of it. The US news ranks about 143 schools. The last 34 schools they don't even rank and put into the bottom category of "non-ranked" though they use their data to derive the overall min levels. Those are the schools that feed those min numbers (i did not publish them for the sake of saving time and space) but the 0 rating for employed at graduation belongs to the University of Vermont as well as Duquesne and Brandies University that did not supply any data and thus received a 0 ranking in that category.

P.S. I will PM you the original spreadsheet :blushing:


variantguy wrote:
bb wrote:
variantguy wrote:
bb Didn't look at the table of stats in detail but I could see that the Haas employment numbers are way off! The table reports 68% got jobs at graduation and 83% 3 months post-graduation, but the actual numbers in the Haas employment report are 76.4% and 89.5%? What's the reasoning behind this (if any)?

And to the point that Regenerate made about peer and recruiter (not all of whom are alums, btw) scores being biased, sure but having 16.25% allocated to standardized scores doesn't make much sense either. It encourages schools to pad their stats, without necessarily creating a better MBA program overall, the most obvious case in point being Yale. Yale above Haas and Tuck is laughable.


Thank you variantguy. The data has been "normalized" (I think that is the right term?)
Meaning the data you see in the table above is AFTER it was converted into a percentile data by taking the biggest number in the range and smallest and dividing them into 100 parts. So 0.83 does not mean that 83% got jobs 3 months after graduation. This means that when compared to all other programs, Haas was ranked as 83rd percentile. I can also post some of the exact data but that has to be normalized before it can be used for rankings calculations. I hope it is somewhat clear :| sorry if I confused anyone...


I still don't get it I think. If I understand correctly, after normalization, the school that performed the best should get a score of 1 and the worst should get 0, right? That doesn't seem to be the case for the "% employed at graduation column" - North Carolina at the top got a 0.93, which doesn't make sense because there's no seven-way tie. Also, the worst-performing schools in five out of eight categories haven't been given a score of 0!! Feels like it defeats the purpose of normalizaiton.
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Re: The US News Rankings 2022 That Should Have Been! [#permalink]

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