Another ding from Darden(1st round)

Question

Today I am dinged from Darden. Although I expected the results before(No invitation I received), Ding Letter always make me blue...Actually I started MBA application two years before. In 2004, 7 applying and received 6 dings and 1 accept. In 2005, 2 applying and 2 dings. In 2006, now I apply 3 and receive 2 dings. I thought I'm quite well person before, but now...Could you please evaluate my profile and give me some tips?

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W/E : 6 years in Manufacturing(Medium-Sized)
Academic : 2.74/4.0, Top university in Korea, Mechanical Engineering
GMAT : T : 690, V : 33, M : 50, AWA : 3.0
TOEFL : T : 263, L/C : 24, S/W : 25, R/C : 30, Writing : 4.0
C/G : CEO in manufacturing industry
Applied 
 - Year 2004
 UCLA, Ohio, Emory(Only accepted), Duke, Tuck, MIT, Cornell
 - Year 2005
 Ross, Haas
 - Year 2006
 CBS(Ding), Darden(Ding), UNC
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gmatmba · Answer

How did you write your essays? Did you consult any admissions consulting firm, or anyone else who has an MBA from a top 20 US school? I am asking as I want to know if you were able to communicate correctly why you want an MBA, etc.

Also, considering your low GPA< you may want to retake Gmat again I guess. Im sure others will help you here. But there is still time, 2nd round deadlines are a month away approx so you should pick some schools carefully and apply.

GMATT73 · Answer

Please don't take this personal, but I find it really surprising that you were dinged by OSU with a 690. Based on the limited background information provided, I have a strong hunch that you must have submitted some poor/mediocre essays. Don't take the GMAT again, just focus on your writing skills. Revise your essays the best you can, heck even pay a professional to get some input, and reapply to a few schools in R2. Your stats are already strong enough.

pelihu · Answer

I'm not sure what your abbreviation C/G means, but are you a CEO already?

My reaction to your experience thus far is that your application results have been in line with expectations. A 2.7 GPA is below the middle 80% (in other words bottom 10%) of virtually all of the schools that you applied to, and a 690 GMAT is below average for most of the schools that you applied to. Just going by stats alone, it would have been a shock if you had been admitted to UCLA, Duke, Tuck, MIT, Cornell, Ross, Hass, Columbia or Darden. The simple answer is that your stats are just not in range.

I'm also a bit surprised that you were not accepted at Ohio St., but even there your GMAT is slightly above average, but your GPA is in the bottom 10% for admitted students.

I don't know what the rest of your profile looks like, but you'd need brilliant essays to even think about getting admitted to these schools. Based solely on the few sentences that you put together in the original post, I'd say that probably didn't happen. To have a legitimate shot at any of the elite or ultra-elite schools, you're going to need to do some of the following things (possibly all of them): 1. take additional classes, preferable in English, and get As to help offset your undergraduate record; 2. score 30-50 points better on the GMAT; and 3) write elite level essays. Getting a lot of promotions and leadership experience at work won't hurt either. You might also consider trying to get a leadership position with a charity or something.

Hjort · Answer

If I read your post correctly, you have been accepted to two transelites in the last three seasons. UNC is a fine school and a legitimate alternative to UVA. In light of your GPA, it sounds like you have actually done quite well.

socman · Answer

I mean C/G is Career Goal and the decision for UNC application will be released Dec. 11

I appreciate all your helpful advise. With your word in mind, I put all my efforts to improve the quality of application. :wink:

rhyme · Answer

Im going with 30% profile issue, and 70% essays issue.

willget800 · Answer

My first thought is why you did not try the schools you got dinged again in 2005 and 2006. Re applying to the same school will give you a better chance if you show to them how you improved.

One thing I noticed is each year you applied to different set of schools. I am not sure if thats going to help. I beleive if you had applied to Duke again you would have had a good chance..

Schools look it up highly if you apply to them 2 or three times.. shows you are persistant.. thats my take

I think I agree with the assesment that - dont take gmat again, concentrate on essays. Again, I have not admitted into any school yet, so maybe i am wrong!

haddy74 · Answer

why would it be a such a big shock? getting into UCLA, duke and cornell with 2.75 and 690 is not a big shock (assuming there is a strong story and essays)...sorry to say but pelihu, you always put too much emphasis on gmat score.....if the guy in disucssion has solid eassays, he has a very good chance at these schools (he should take some classes to mitigate his low undergrad gmat and he is from korea) but i really do not think that getting 730 or 740 in gmat would help him much..after all wharton dinged over 850 canidates last year with a gmat score above 750.....with indian and chinese students using unfair means more and more to score high in gmat (now dont be upset guys...there are a lot of websites where these indian and chinese students come and disclose real questions..i personally know at least 4 such indian students who used these websites and scored really high in gmat...one of them told me that he saw at least 24 questions in Q section in his exam), gmat carries very little importance in the selection process....

willget800 · Answer

haddy, i agree with you.. at times gmat is overrated in this club.. granted this club is for gmat period. But... I sincerely belive the candidate we are helping here has nothing to do with gmat.. I agree with rhyme's assesment that its 70% communication of your profile..

willget800 · Answer

socman,

I think its the way you market yourself.. Again I dont know much yet, but from what I gather.. I would market and communicate my profile better and please reapply to the dinged schools.. ask them what happened? why did I get dinged.. call them up.. I knmow its tough from there.. but dont give up man...... be persistant.. the schools love it!

pelihu · Answer

So you're saying, for UCLA, that you don't believe a GPA in the bottom 10% (likely bottom 5%) along with a below average GMAT is a problem? By definition, it would be a rarity for someone with a 2.7 GPA to be admitted. Their middle 80% for GPA is like 3.0-3.8 or something.

Just looking at the numbers, (admit% and yield), 50 people or less are admitted to UCLA with GPAs below 2.9. The majority of these people, 30-40 of them, will be underrepresented minorities. That means that maybe 10-20 others will be admitted with GPAs below 2.9. Of these 10-20 people, I would venture to guess that virtually all have ultra-high GMATs to offset their low GPAs. No more than a handful of people will have GPAs below 2.9 and GMATs below 700. That is in fact a rarity.

pelihu · Answer

Hjort: I completely agree, that given the GPA, getting into UNC would be considered a huge success; but actually I believe he hasn't been admitted to UNC yet.

Rhyme: I disagree with you that it is 70% execution in this case. If his stats were low, but within the middle 80%, then I think proper execution can help to overcome any concerns. But given the GPA in the bottom 10%, without a GMAT alleviate academic concerns, I view this as an automatic ding at most elite & ultra-elites, with minimal opportunities at the others.

For those of you that can't seem to read, I never said the GMAT is the problem. The GPA is the primary concern. A high GMAT (or additional classes) could help offset a GPA in the bottom 10%; but a below average GMAT will not address the academic concerns raised by the GPA.

willget800 · Answer

IN 2004, 690 was not below average for most schools he is speaking of

willget800 · Answer

Pehilu, you said gmat was below average for most schools. I dont believe it was

pelihu · Answer

The GMAT has been moving up, but it hasn't been moving that fast. Here are the scores reported by BW in their 2004 issue (meaning results are from 2003):

School: mean/median
UCLA: 705/710
Duke: 707/710
Tuck: 704/N/A
MIT: 697/700
Cornell: 673/680 (still pretty much the case)

From the current issue (stats from 2005)
Ross: 701/710
Haas: 707/710
Columbia: 706/NA
Darden: 677/680 (this is well-known as well)

So yes, for the elite and ultra-elites but Cornell and Darden, 690 was in fact below average at the time of application.

However, I do agree with your premise that the average GMAT is going up at these schools. The medians at all of BWs top 11 hit 710 (or more) this year and I think it's entirely possible that when stats come out next year (for this year's apps), the medians at several schools will be at 720.

willget800 · Answer

you know what happens when more and more students get really high gmats.. gmat looses its respect in the scheme of things of applications.. if the high scores are no more an exclusive thing.. gmat might well become a moot point in mba applications 10 years from now..

EconGirl · Answer

socman ,
Regarding your GMAT score - we all know that Q is more important than V and since you got Q50 in 2004 (I assume) than I would say that your GMAT score was deffinitelly not an issue and you would be crazy to retake it unless you feel your Verbal has improved considerably. 
GPA is low for US standards but maybe not for Korea's and especially in mechanical engineering! Consider using optional essays to explain. 

So I think it comes to your essays and recomendations. Who are the people that wrote your recommedations? Are you sure they did a decent job? maybe that is an issue. Good luck!

ceglar · Answer

I was at UCLA Thursday and recieved a packet that listed the total range of GMAT and GPA (not the 80% range)

GMAT: 780-540
GPA: 4.0-2.9

I was actually shocked, supposedly no one got in with less than a 2.9...but someone got in with a 540.

pelihu · Answer

Actually, a rising average GMAT is clearly an indication that GMAT is becoming an ever more important factor in admissions. At the very least it suggests that schools are less and less likely to admit those with lower GMAT scores.

Another ding from Darden(1st round)

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