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deowl
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Are admission decisions really random? Updated on: 07 Jan 2007, 12:19
Originally posted by deowl on 07 Jan 2007, 12:12.
Last edited by deowl on 07 Jan 2007, 12:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Khm... And what exactly wrong with a technology entrepreneur? That's exactily what I wrote, and, well... So far quite successful :lol:

In fact, this could be a quite adequate goal for many, much better than the one to become an IB with a background of IT geek.


[EDIT: Thats exactly the problem with addmission consultants ( most of whom are just former successful applicants ). They found one way and immidiately start shaping other applications to be the same. In most cases, especially when the backgrounds are really different, the outcome is miserable]
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 12:17
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lhotseface
I should have qualified my statement for Indian Technology geeks and not Middle Eastern Technology geeks...! BTW, IB from technology seems even worse :)

deowl
Khm... And what exactly wrong with a technology entrepreneur? That's exactily what I wrote, and, well... So far quite successful :lol:

In fact, this could be a quite adequate goal for many, much better than the one to become an IB with a background of IT geek.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:03
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Well, I completely disagree with you here. There is no sense to be creative regarding to the future goals. It is not what should set you apart from other applicants. In fact, if it does it could be quite risky. The only reason the admission committee looks for diverse qualities is to diversify the learning experience for the class. Obviously, your future goal cannot do so.

There are only two reasons they want to know your goals for:

a) Your short term goal is safe enough so you will not worsen their employment statistics
b) Your long term goal is strong enough so you can strengthen their brand with your professional success.

Of course, one do have to be creative to show how her long term goal is not only intended to make her a lot of money , but also to better the humanity as a whole. But this is a different story.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:19
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You are missing my point here. If you are a cookie cutter applicant, there is no point in regurgitating the same career goals as every other applicant. It pay to be more narrow and focussed. It doesn't matter whether you use technology to start an entrepreneurial venture to design Hi-tech self cleaning toilets or something else. Just mentioning that you want to be a technology entrepreneur with no clear direction won't get the average Joe/Jane far..enough said !

deowl
Well, I completely disagree with you here. There is no sense to be creative regarding to the future goals. It is not what should set you apart from other applicants. In fact, if it does it could be quite risky. The only reason the admission committee looks for diverse qualities is to diversify the learning experience for the class. Obviously, your future goal cannot do so.

There are only two reasons they want to know your goals for:

a) Your short term goal is safe enough so you will not worsen their employment statistics
b) Your long term goal is strong enough so you can strengthen their brand with your professional success.

Of course, one do have to be creative to show how her long term goal is not only intended to make her a lot of money , but also to better the humanity as a whole. But this is a different story.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:21
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not to bring in the equation of the country you are from

correct me if i am wrong - deowl - you from israel - no issue of writing a technology firm you want to start up
lhoteseface - you from india correct, - issue of writing to start up tech venture. almost all indian engineers from tech want to do either this, or swtich careers to IB or move to finance or consulting.

I guess goes back to where you are from..

so many variables to consider?
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:31
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While I understand your comments, I agree with deowl. The goals/aspirations section is the one place were you should be consistent with your background and realistic in your expectations.

While Adcoms love to talk about the "high school literature teacher" who got into McKinsey, the truth is that even an ultra-elite program will have some limitations into how much change it can facilitate.

What I'd want from goals is: consistent / focused / clear / well reasoned / backed up by extensive research. If you want to transition from IT to IB, you should be able to, but make sure you research throughly what that path entails. Talk to alumni, talk to clubs, read about it, start getting some useful experience on the subject while you can, fully understand what the job will be like, etc. And choose either 1 clear path or a couple of very similar paths. Don't state you want to either be in Management Consulting or in Venture Capital (even if you have not decided between these two, yet). You'll come out as unfocused and somehow risky.

Hope it helps. G'luck.
L.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:31
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deowl

In fact, this could be a quite adequate goal for many, much better than the one to become an IB with a background of IT geek.
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Right, I mean, I think either goal is fine - the importance is to make it sound believable and thought out. You want to go into IB? Fine. Why do you want to go into IB? Who have you talked to or what you seen that makes you interested in IB? Or have you just heard it pays a lot and you have no real reason to be interested?
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:40
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lhotseface:

No, I am not. Continue your career in the same industry as you were before the school but on a different, obviously global, scale is the most adequate answer for most applicants. Moreover, if you want to do something different, you have to work hard to make your reasons sound convincing for the admission committee.

Of course, you have to develop your story specifically, providing compelling reasons how the MBA degree can get you there. But still, doing so for your own industry is much simple and sounds much more compelling. Not to mention much better employment opportunities.

willget800:

I think you missed my major point. The future goal is NOT intended to distinguish you from other applicants. If it does , this does NOT give you any additional points. In fact, it can even take some away.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:43
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I am not sure what made people think that I am asking people to not show their future career goals as an extension of their past experiences, background and values..that is certainly not the case ! My advice for IT(I hate this term..it is too broad) applicants was to think about their IT background as an asset towards a perhaps more personal career goal.

Exhibit 1: I love technology and would like to be a tech entrepreneur providing outsourcing services to global companies.
Exhibit 2: My personal passion is clean toilets. Given my technology background and an MBA, I intend to start a company that manufactures and markets self-cleaning Hi-tech toilets.

Which one sounds more focussed and personal ?

lepium
While I understand your comments, I agree with deowl. The goals/aspirations section is the one place were you should be consistent with your background and realistic in your expectations.

While Adcoms love to talk about the "high school literature teacher" who got into McKinsey, the truth is that even an ultra-elite program will have some limitations into how much change it can facilitate.

What I'd want from goals is: consistent / focused / clear / well reasoned / backed up by extensive research. If you want to transition from IT to IB, you should be able to, but make sure you research throughly what that path entails. Talk to alumni, talk to clubs, read about it, start getting some useful experience on the subject while you can, fully understand what the job will be like, etc. And choose either 1 clear path or a couple of very similar paths. Don't state you want to either be in Management Consulting or in Venture Capital (even if you have not decided between these two, yet). You'll come out as unfocused and somehow risky.

Hope it helps. G'luck.
L.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:48
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Understood. 2 would some more focused if supported by research and some kind of commitment to the issue (eg: founder of the "clean toilet club" as an undergrad, or I talked to the one X alumn who followed a similar path, etc.).

Cheers. L.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 13:50
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Exactly...an extension of your past in to the future.

lepium
Understood. 2 would some more focused if supported by research and some kind of commitment to the issue (eg: founder of the "clean toilet club" as an undergrad, or I talked to the one X alumn who followed a similar path, etc.).

Cheers. L.
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deowl

willget800:

I think you missed my major point. The future goal is NOT intended to distinguish you from other applicants. If it does , this does NOT give you any additional points. In fact, it can even take some away.
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I am not sure if you got my point. If you have 50 Indian Applicants going to the same school with just doing IT venture, your chances of getting into that school are very slim. It all comes down to the number of applicants in your group when you apply. Having really believable goals wont help you if you have 20 more people from same background asking for that.

How much ever school says race is not important, i dont buy that anymore.
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deowl

willget800:

I think you missed my major point. The future goal is NOT intended to distinguish you from other applicants. If it does , this does NOT give you any additional points. In fact, it can even take some away.

I am not sure if you got my point. If you have 50 Indian Applicants going to the same school with just doing IT venture, your chances of getting into that school are very slim. It all comes down to the number of applicants in your group when you apply. Having really believable goals wont help you if you have 20 more people from same background asking for that.

How much ever school says race is not important, i dont buy that anymore.
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While I acknowledge it will be tough and arguably tougher than for everyone else I think your best choices (in order) are:

1) Be the IT guy who's passionate about cleaning AND can throughly support his case.

OR

2) Be the best IT guy who wants to start an outsourcing venture.

What would definitely not help is:

3) Be the IT guy who wanted to sound original and decided he wants to start up an Ikebana business without any knowledge nor commitment to the industry whatsoever.

The frontier between 1) and 3) is quite subtle, so watch out!

Hope it helps. Cheers.
L.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 14:10
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lhotseface
I am not sure what made people think that I am asking people to not show their future career goals as an extension of their past experiences, background and values..that is certainly not the case ! My advice for IT(I hate this term..it is too broad) applicants was to think about their IT background as an asset towards a perhaps more personal career goal.

Exhibit 1: I love technology and would like to be a tech entrepreneur providing outsourcing services to global companies.
Exhibit 2: My personal passion is clean toilets. Given my technology background and an MBA, I intend to start a company that manufactures and markets self-cleaning Hi-tech toilets.

Which one sounds more focussed and personal ?

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Well, they both keep the applicant within his IT background. The difference is pretty much semantical, that is, the second one sounds much more convincing not because of his particular passion, but because of the structure of the sentence. How about this one:

My passion for technology and entrepreneurship led me to define my long term goal in the form of my own venture in the sector I know best, the IT industry .
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 14:15
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Multiply your statement 50 times for IT applicants who are all from India with stellar GMATs and good GPAs...YAAAWWWN ! Nothing to attract my attention if I were to read essays. Cleaning toilets sounds more different and interesting...careers goals is usually the first essay for any school and sets the tone for rest of the essays.

deowl
lhotseface
I am not sure what made people think that I am asking people to not show their future career goals as an extension of their past experiences, background and values..that is certainly not the case ! My advice for IT(I hate this term..it is too broad) applicants was to think about their IT background as an asset towards a perhaps more personal career goal.

Exhibit 1: I love technology and would like to be a tech entrepreneur providing outsourcing services to global companies.
Exhibit 2: My personal passion is clean toilets. Given my technology background and an MBA, I intend to start a company that manufactures and markets self-cleaning Hi-tech toilets.

Which one sounds more focussed and personal ?


Well, they both keep the applicant within his IT background. The difference is pretty much semantical, that is, the second one sounds much more convincing not because of his particular passion, but because of the structure of the sentence. How about this one:

My passion for technology and entrepreneurship led me to define my long term goal in the form of my own venture in the sector I know best, the IT industry .
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 14:16
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willget800

I am not sure if you got my point. If you have 50 Indian Applicants going to the same school with just doing IT venture, your chances of getting into that school are very slim. It all comes down to the number of applicants in your group when you apply. Having really believable goals wont help you if you have 20 more people from same background asking for that.

How much ever school says race is not important, i dont buy that anymore.
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Please, reread my previous comment. But once again. You do NOT have to have different future goals. It is not what distinguishes [in terms of admission chances ] you from other applicants. You background, qualifications, personal characteristics, hobbies do. Goals do NOT.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 14:20
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You are assuming that schools don't care about unique and/or focussed career goals..I disagree. If that is the case, they might as well have a check box...

Consulting X
IB X
Business development X
IT project management X
VC X
Corporate Finance X
Entrepreneur X

They do want you to go deeper than that...

deowl
willget800

I am not sure if you got my point. If you have 50 Indian Applicants going to the same school with just doing IT venture, your chances of getting into that school are very slim. It all comes down to the number of applicants in your group when you apply. Having really believable goals wont help you if you have 20 more people from same background asking for that.

How much ever school says race is not important, i dont buy that anymore.

Please, reread my previous comment. But once again. You do NOT have to have different future goals. It is not what distinguishes [in terms of admission chances ] you from other applicants. You background, qualifications, personal characteristics, hobbies do. Goals do NOT.
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 14:24
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lhotseface
Multiply your statement 50 times for IT applicants who are all from India with stellar GMATs and good GPAs...YAAAWWWN ! Nothing to attract my attention if I were to read essays. Cleaning toilets sounds more different and interesting...careers goals is usually the first essay for any school and sets the tone for rest of the essays.
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Khm... do you actually read my comments? What I say is that your goals are NOT what should distinguish you from other applicants in the same pool. Because even if it does , it does not give you any advantage in terms of admission chances. Please also note my last comment to <willget800>
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 14:26
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lhotseface
You are assuming that schools don't care about unique and/or focussed career goals..I disagree. If that is the case, they might as well have a check box...

Consulting X
IB X
Business development X
IT project management X
VC X
Corporate Finance X
Entrepreneur X

They do want you to go deeper than that...
Show more


May I ask you what for?
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Are admission decisions really random? 07 Jan 2007, 14:27
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As far as I understand deowl, they make you elaborate on your goals to make sure you understand them. They don't really care - as soon as you don't screw their employment stats.

While I agree with you lhotseface that sometimes a fancy and nicely backed career goal may attract some interest, I still think it's not a priority matter. And certainly one shouldn't fabricate "mega-goals" just to stand out; one will sound silly much more than distinctive.
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