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iamvolitant
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 12:05
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as a side note:
I applied to Stern, Johnson, Yale, Tuck, Marshall and Tepper
and I took the revised GRE instead of the GMAT

ill post more stats too if anyone wants them
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MIXEDin86
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 12:09
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iamvolitant
as a side note:
I applied to Stern, Johnson, Yale, Tuck, Marshall and Tepper
and I took the revised GRE instead of the GMAT

ill post more stats too if anyone wants them
Show more

I see you applied to HBS 2+2, does that mean you're a current College Senior applying to b-school?
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 12:12
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iamvolitant
as a side note:
I applied to Stern, Johnson, Yale, Tuck, Marshall and Tepper
and I took the revised GRE instead of the GMAT

ill post more stats too if anyone wants them
Show more

Are there others out there who would benefit from GRE fields for scores as well... if so please let me know and I can work on it.
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iamvolitant
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 12:17
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mixedin86
iamvolitant
as a side note:
I applied to Stern, Johnson, Yale, Tuck, Marshall and Tepper
and I took the revised GRE instead of the GMAT

ill post more stats too if anyone wants them

I see you applied to HBS 2+2, does that mean you're a current College Senior applying to b-school?
Show more

Yep :)
I graduate this spring. I am also hitting my 3rd year anniversary of working at a national medical laboratory.

My experience meant I could apply for either 2+2 OR regular HBS. I decided since I did my UG in science instead of business and this year is the only year to submit a 2+2 app I might as well give it a shot, i can always apply to regular HBS later.
I also thought 3 years of really good WE might be a good advantage over other seniors... So we'll see what happens :)
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 12:44
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cheetarah1980
Nothing offensive in what you've said. It's VERY true. I find myself constantly saying that "everyone is MORE than a GMAT score."

However, I sometimes have an issue with how URMs often downplay the GMAT. The GMAT was never intended to be an indicator of how good of a business person an applicant will be. However, there is a correlation between GMAT performance and 1st year MBA coursework performance. While the GMAT is NOT the only indicator of how well someone can handle the academic rigor of an MBA program it is one indication. If we are choosing to apply to business schools where the GMAT is part of the evaluative criteria then we are CHOOSING to be judged by our score, in part. We can't make that choice and then try to dictate how much weight the test should have when evaluating our candidacy.

Now I will bet my bank account that URMs probably stand heads and shoulders above the general applicant pool in terms of leadership and ECs and are equals in terms of work experience. I don't think that someone who stands out from a GMAT perspective is any more qualified than someone who stands out from a leadership/EC perspective. Schools need a mix of both. However, I do get the impression that many URMs don't shoot to get those nosebleed GMAT scores that we see from other groups because we expect other aspects of the app to make up for it. I don't know how many times I've heard someone say, "Well I'm Black, so let me just get my 650 and call it a day." I will admit that I seriously considered retaking the GMAT even though I got a 710 (if I had more time I probably would have). Partially because I felt like I didn't perform to my potential in Verbal and that I needed a higher score to truly offset my GPA. But I also wanted to be in that 99th percentile and go where few URMs have gone. I wanted to show that we are just as capable of pushing up the school averages. I hated it when people would say, "You're black. You're a woman. A 710 is great for you!" I feel like we sometimes settle for just being good enough on the standardized test front when we have the ability to be OUTSTANDING.

So yes, the GMAT is only one data point and a 620 is no more the complete measure of a person than a 780 is. But I don't think it does URMs any favors to continue being content with having significantly lower scores than the general applicant pool.
Show more

Hi Cheetarah,

My problem with your reasoning is exactly what I find problematic with obtaining an extraordinarily high GMAT in the first place. I feel like what you are saying is because whites and I'll just go ahead and say it, Asians, have raised the average GMAT score in recent years at top business schools in order to be more "competitive", that URM's should follow suit to "show their worth" (my words not yours). I argue this rationale is problematic because my I believe the system is broken and becoming increasingly elitist and exclusionary. In my opinion beyond a GMAT score, of 680 for instance, the GMAT no longer becomes a significant indicator of how a student will academically perform in business school. In my opinion that is ALL the GMAT should be used for. So why then is a 700 somehow better than a 680 or a 680 better than a 660? Do those 20 points really make a quantifiable difference? Do 40 points make a quantifiable difference? Does scoring a 720 vs a 660 determine the difference between a future CEO vs someone with an average career in business? I mean…seriously? If it's not meant to be used as an indicator of what people go on to do after business school, then did the curriculum get that much more difficult in the last 10-15 years at the top business schools?? I really find that hard to believe.

There was an interview published not too long ago with the Consortium CEO that discusses this phenomenom in length and how it's affected URM's. I think rankings explain this phenomenom perfectly. While I think some schools aren't as concerned with the rankings, there is no doubt in my mind there are others, who have yet to jump on board with the Consortium that are. The GMAT makes up roughly 1/3 of the rankings average.



cheetarah1980
I find that we do ourselves a disservice when we try to downplay the GMAT. It fuels the perception that we are being given an unfair break that other demographic groups don't receive..
Show more
[/quote][/quote]

I am not so sure that I was downplaying the GMAT, but rather arguing against a status quo that I think is not only harmful to URM’s but also to those that tend to perform poorly on standardized tests. Not to mention there are other ways to evaluate quantitative aptitude. How students performed in quantitative classes in undergraduate is a good starting point. As for your second point. I think there is always going to be this perception that URM’s are getting some sort of unfair advantage through some sort of mythical Affirmative Action creature. But you know what I say to that. Who cares?!?!

We are minorities. With the colors of our skins may come that price. Somebody’s always going to think something. Just because I think something is wrong with the system and I want to change it has nothing to do with fueling a perception. And at the end of the day do I think URM’s downplay the GMAT. Nope. I just think they are downright scared of it, and are conditioned to think they are bad at math. And because of that tend to do very bad on it. And hell…….they aren’t the only ones.
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 13:06
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Mbahopesful

Hi Cheetarah,

My problem with your reasoning is exactly what I find problematic with obtaining extraordinarily high GMAT in the first place. I feel like what you are saying is because whites and I'll just go ahead and say it, Asians, have raised the average GMAT score in recent years at top business schools in order to be more "competitive", that URM's should follow suit to "show their worth" (my words not yours). I argue this rationale is problematic. In my opinion beyond a GMAT score, of 680 for instance, the GMAT no longer becomes a significant indicator of how a student will academically perform in business school. In my opinion that is ALL the GMAT should be used for. So why then is a 700 somehow better than a 680 or a 680 better than a 660? Do those 20 points really make a quantifiable difference? Do 40 points make a quantifiable difference? Does scoring a 720 vs a 660 determine the difference between a future CEO vs someone with an average career in business? I mean…seriously?

There was an interview published not too long ago with the Consortium CEO that discusses this phenomenom in length and how it's affected URM's. I think rankings explain this phenomenom perfectly. While I think some schools aren't as concerned with the rankings, there is no doubt in my mind there are others, who have yet to jump on board with the Consortium that are. The GMAT makes up roughly 1/3 of the rankings average.

I am not so sure that I was downplaying the GMAT, but rather arguing against a status quo that I think is not only harmful to URM’s but also to those that tend to perform poorly on standardized tests. Not to mention there are other ways to evaluate quantitative aptitude. How students performed in quantitative classes in undergraduate is a good starting point. As for your second point. I think there is always going to be this perception that URM’s are getting some sort of unfair advantage through some sort of mythical Affirmative Action creature. But you know what I say to that. Who cares?!?!

We are minorities. With the colors of our skins may come that price. Somebody’s always going to think something. Just because I think something is wrong with the system and I want to change it has nothing to do with fueling a perception. And at the end of the day do I think URM’s downplay the GMAT. Nope. I just think they are downright scared of it, and are conditioned to think they are bad at math. And because of that tend to do very bad on it. And hell…….they aren’t the only ones.
Show more
In some ways you are preaching to the choir. After a certain threshold a higher GMAT score is basically meaningless. I just wanted to clarify some of what I said. First, I agree that the GMAT is not an indicator of who will be a CEO and who's gonna end up as a worker bee. However, schools do NOT use it for this purpose. It's simply an indicator of academic performance in the 1st year. That's all. Also it is only ONE measuring stick of academic ability. Honestly, schools are simply looking for some indication that an applicant can do the work, whether that be through your transcript, GMAT, or current work roles. The GMAT is simply ONE measure, not the full picture. In that context I do think that it's a valid measurement tool when used in conjunction with other methods. And since we are applying to these schools we are complicit in accepting it as a measuring stick. If we choose to play, we are playing by rules we did not create. I say the same thing to Asians and whites who feel like the GMAT should play an even bigger role in admissions decisions cause they are upset that their 760 didn't get them into H/S/W/K/B/etc. but a minority's 680 was good enough to get the admit. They chose to apply and agreed to be subject to the evaluative criteria whether it works the way they think it should or not.

I think that's my point. The GMAT is part of the game. Yes scores from Asia are pushing up the schools' averages. The standards that were good enough 10 years ago are obsolete and yes I do think as URMs we should strive to keep up. I will always say that the GMAT is ONE data point and IMO it's not nearly as important as work experience, tight career goals, and leadership aptitude. However, schools have every right to consider their rankings and flawed or not the GMAT plays a large factor. Right now we have to play by these rules in order to get a seat at the table to maybe one day change them. At the end of the day I think there is a balance between complacency about the GMAT (which some URMs have fallen victim to) and fixation on a score that offers no significant advantage.
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 13:17
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cheetarah1980

I think that's my point. The GMAT is part of the game.
Show more
Just so you know you quoted and unedited version of my post above.

And on this we can agree to disagree. Maybe I'm too naive. I think my point is this. I think the game is garbage. What I'm saying is that if we're really serious about the Consortium's mission--for those of us that applied through the Consortium--then we should be trying to change the game, not play it. Good luck to you. Over and out.
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 13:23
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Mbahopesful
cheetarah1980
Nothing offensive in what you've said. It's VERY true. I find myself constantly saying that "everyone is MORE than a GMAT score."

However, I sometimes have an issue with how URMs often downplay the GMAT. The GMAT was never intended to be an indicator of how good of a business person an applicant will be. However, there is a correlation between GMAT performance and 1st year MBA coursework performance. While the GMAT is NOT the only indicator of how well someone can handle the academic rigor of an MBA program it is one indication. If we are choosing to apply to business schools where the GMAT is part of the evaluative criteria then we are CHOOSING to be judged by our score, in part. We can't make that choice and then try to dictate how much weight the test should have when evaluating our candidacy.

Now I will bet my bank account that URMs probably stand heads and shoulders above the general applicant pool in terms of leadership and ECs and are equals in terms of work experience. I don't think that someone who stands out from a GMAT perspective is any more qualified than someone who stands out from a leadership/EC perspective. Schools need a mix of both. However, I do get the impression that many URMs don't shoot to get those nosebleed GMAT scores that we see from other groups because we expect other aspects of the app to make up for it. I don't know how many times I've heard someone say, "Well I'm Black, so let me just get my 650 and call it a day." I will admit that I seriously considered retaking the GMAT even though I got a 710 (if I had more time I probably would have). Partially because I felt like I didn't perform to my potential in Verbal and that I needed a higher score to truly offset my GPA. But I also wanted to be in that 99th percentile and go where few URMs have gone. I wanted to show that we are just as capable of pushing up the school averages. I hated it when people would say, "You're black. You're a woman. A 710 is great for you!" I feel like we sometimes settle for just being good enough on the standardized test front when we have the ability to be OUTSTANDING.

So yes, the GMAT is only one data point and a 620 is no more the complete measure of a person than a 780 is. But I don't think it does URMs any favors to continue being content with having significantly lower scores than the general applicant pool.

Hi Cheetarah,

My problem with your reasoning is exactly what I find problematic with obtaining an extraordinarily high GMAT in the first place. I feel like what you are saying is because whites and I'll just go ahead and say it, Asians, have raised the average GMAT score in recent years at top business schools in order to be more "competitive", that URM's should follow suit to "show their worth" (my words not yours). I argue this rationale is problematic because my I believe the system is broken and becoming increasingly elitist and exclusionary. In my opinion beyond a GMAT score, of 680 for instance, the GMAT no longer becomes a significant indicator of how a student will academically perform in business school. In my opinion that is ALL the GMAT should be used for. So why then is a 700 somehow better than a 680 or a 680 better than a 660? Do those 20 points really make a quantifiable difference? Do 40 points make a quantifiable difference? Does scoring a 720 vs a 660 determine the difference between a future CEO vs someone with an average career in business? I mean…seriously? If it's not meant to be used as an indicator of what people go on to do after business school, then did the curriculum get that much more difficult in the last 10-15 years at the top business schools?? I really find that hard to believe.

There was an interview published not too long ago with the Consortium CEO that discusses this phenomenom in length and how it's affected URM's. I think rankings explain this phenomenom perfectly. While I think some schools aren't as concerned with the rankings, there is no doubt in my mind there are others, who have yet to jump on board with the Consortium that are. The GMAT makes up roughly 1/3 of the rankings average.



cheetarah1980
I find that we do ourselves a disservice when we try to downplay the GMAT. It fuels the perception that we are being given an unfair break that other demographic groups don't receive..
Show more
[/quote]

I am not so sure that I was downplaying the GMAT, but rather arguing against a status quo that I think is not only harmful to URM’s but also to those that tend to perform poorly on standardized tests. Not to mention there are other ways to evaluate quantitative aptitude. How students performed in quantitative classes in undergraduate is a good starting point. As for your second point. I think there is always going to be this perception that URM’s are getting some sort of unfair advantage through some sort of mythical Affirmative Action creature. But you know what I say to that. Who cares?!?!

We are minorities. With the colors of our skins may come that price. Somebody’s always going to think something. Just because I think something is wrong with the system and I want to change it has nothing to do with fueling a perception. And at the end of the day do I think URM’s downplay the GMAT. Nope. I just think they are downright scared of it, and are conditioned to think they are bad at math. And because of that tend to do very bad on it. And hell…….they aren’t the only ones.[/quote]

Dude (or lady), as much as perception sucks, IT IS WHAT IT IS! I personally know of a few minorities who have aimed lower or "settled" because they feel they can. And while there may be no material difference between a 660-680 or a 680-700, the blurred line has to be drawn somewhere. And obviously Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, & Morgan Stanley agree because if you want to do Investment Banking and you aren't Lloyd Blankfein or Jamie Dimon's next of kin you're NOT getting a first interview without at least a 700 GMAT score. I've also heard it takes a minimum 720 for certain top Consulting firms. Oh, and those companies don't screen minorities more “holistically” like some business schools do (even though I think they should). You either meet the mark or you don't. So while I agree that the perception SUCKS, I'll also refuse to be a part of it and will continue to strive for a +700 score so I can be ultra-competitive when IB recruiting starts next October. GMAT scores continue to get higher because recourses to achieve higher scores continue to improve, oh well, the GMAT is like a video game, it’s beatable, so get your Modern Warfare on. Welcome to the forum by the way, lol
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 13:27
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Mbahopesful
cheetarah1980

I think that's my point. The GMAT is part of the game.
Just so you know you quoted and unedited version of my post above.

And on this we can agree to disagree. Maybe I'm too naive. I think my point is this. I think the game is garbage. What I'm saying is that if we're really serious about the Consortium's mission--for those of us that applied through the Consortium--then we should be trying to change the game, not play it. Good luck to you. Over and out.
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Oops, sorry if I messed up your post. I didn't intend to do so. Sometimes I mix up the edit and quote buttons.
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 16:26
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For those of you who have recently updated your profile. PLEASE make sure the cycle within which you are applying is 2011-2012, not 2012-2013.

The year in the update profile function was automatically switched after January 1 to the 2012-2013 application cycle and it may have affected the capture of your information on our roll call. Thank you!
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 16:40
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Mbahopesful
cheetarah1980

I think that's my point. The GMAT is part of the game.
Just so you know you quoted and unedited version of my post above.

And on this we can agree to disagree. Maybe I'm too naive. I think my point is this. I think the game is garbage. What I'm saying is that if we're really serious about the Consortium's mission--for those of us that applied through the Consortium--then we should be trying to change the game, not play it. Good luck to you. Over and out.
Show more

I agree, the game is garbage. However, by applying to top MBA programs I'm CHOOSING to play it. Complaining about the rules is like jumping into a football game and then complaining about how stupid the rules are when you have to turn the ball over on downs. Who cares if you could've moved the chains if you'd have just had one more chance. That's not how football is played. If you want more than 4 downs create your own game.

Personally, I don't feel as though the GMAT is an unfair measuring stick. It's a crappy test that forces you to think about high school math and English in a way that you didn't have to do it in high school. Yes there are some people who will struggle with the GMAT no matter how hard they study and these people exist across all demographics. And that is why the GMAT is only one of many measures that schools use. It is not the end all and be all, but it has its place. Like mixedin86 said, there are resources out there to crack the code and do well on it. Although these resources can be expensive the majority of b-school applicants aren't coming from low wage sectors. We're working in engineering, marketing, finance, sales, etc. with companies like JPMorgan, P&G, Google, General Mills, Deloitte, etc. Hell, a lot of our companies will PAY for our GMAT prep and one test fee (I know mine did). The URM applicant pool is not facing the same barriers to entry that the low-income high school student faces when trying to get to undergrad. Even those of us who used to be that high school kid can often afford some GMAT prep (a class, set of MGMAT books, etc.). I don't 100% buy the idea that we don't have the OPPORTUNITY to excel on test day(s).

I 1000% believe in the Consortium's mission. I spent most of my life as the only black person. Only black person in AP classes. Only black person in my study group. Only black person on my account team. I want to see more people that look like me. It shouldn't be a major event when a black woman makes it to a senior manager level at my company. It should be the norm. However, I think the Consortium is around to help us MEET and exceed the benchmarks top bschools and companies put in place, not remove them. I mean do you eliminate standardized tests for everyone? Or is it just URMs since we struggle with it in disproportionate numbers? I don't know if that's really the Consortium's goal.

If we want to change the game then I think that's great! But I think we have more credibility when trying to change it when we can say, "Look, I conquered things your way and your way is stupid so let's change things," vs, "I couldn't keep up with your way of doing things so your way is stupid. Let's change it." I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd rather do the former.
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 16:48
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Just got in at Johnson..!!! :!: Call came in around 6:20 EST; got invited to scholarship weekend in March. Great way to end a crappy week. :shock:
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 16:51
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IIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!! @ Johnson

Just got the call at 6:27 EST

In w/ invite to Scholarship Wknd! :lol:
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 16:52
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Nessy26X
Just got in at Johnson..!!! :!: Call came in around 6:20 EST; got invited to scholarship weekend in March. Great way to end a crappy week. :shock:
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Woohoo!!! A big CONGRATULATIONS to you!! Johnson is an awesome school. Not to mention Cornell has some of the best dining hall food around. Make sure to get out of Sage once in a while to enjoy a grilled cheese sammich at Trillium. DELICIOUS! Have fun celebrating this weekend.
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 16:55
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johnnyGMAT2k10
IIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!! @ Johnson

Just got the call at 6:27 EST

In w/ invite to Scholarship Wknd! :lol:
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I just screamed out loud when I read this. So happy for you! Congratulations. I knew you'd get in cause you're a great candidate. AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
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johnnyGMAT2k10
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 17:02
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cheetarah1980
johnnyGMAT2k10
IIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!! @ Johnson

Just got the call at 6:27 EST

In w/ invite to Scholarship Wknd! :lol:
I just screamed out loud when I read this. So happy for you! Congratulations. I knew you'd get in cause you're a great candidate. AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
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Thank you so much! I cant stop laughing right now, I'm so excited!! It's gonna be a great wknd!
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TheSenator
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 17:16
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Nessy26X
Just got in at Johnson..!!! :!: Call came in around 6:20 EST; got invited to scholarship weekend in March. Great way to end a crappy week. :shock:
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Congrats Nessy! Celebrate, celebrate, celebrate!
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TheSenator
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 17:17
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johnnyGMAT2k10
IIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!! @ Johnson

Just got the call at 6:27 EST

In w/ invite to Scholarship Wknd! :lol:
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Johnny, congratulations man... but you had to have known it was coming right? Kudos to you... well deserved.
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MIXEDin86
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 17:20
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johnnyGMAT2k10
IIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!! @ Johnson

Just got the call at 6:27 EST

In w/ invite to Scholarship Wknd! :lol:
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Hella congrats to you and everyone else who got the call! You better party hard this weekend!!!
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djtriptick
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Calling All Fall 2012 Consortium Applicants! 06 Jan 2012, 17:27
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On Wednesday I received a Berkeley Haas Super Saturday Invite by email. Super Saturday is on February 4th, and is for out of town applicants. I'm still in CA, so a little surprised to get a super Saturday invite, but very happy to receive it! I have to admit that my spirits are still not what they were pre-Darden ding, but I'm trying to be optimistic about Haas.

I'll admit to ranking Haas 1st, so I don't know how that factors into this whole thing. Did any other R1 consortium applicants get an invite? Will I be seeing any of you there?

Since I won't have to take the day off to interview I plan to take a day to sit on classes since I have only visited for their diversity Saturday event so far.

I did notice the UCLA Anderson invites (which I have not received), and I didn't know that they let R1 consortium applicants know so soon about decisions. I haven't done a visit yet so I guess I really need to do that soon if it is going to make any difference. (Its an easy visit for me to make).
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