Chances?

Question

Hi all, 

I just want to get a concept about my chances of a place at Stanford or HBS. 

I'm currently a lawyer in the UK at a top 10 New York firm (been there 2 years). I have an undergrad in law (2nd in my year) and a masters in law (top 10 in my year) from Oxford. 

Been doing practice GMATs and scoring between 690 and 750 (need some more prep). 

I generally haven't noticed many with a similar profile applying - what sort of chances do you think I have, and what do you think would be a reasonable GMAT score to post? 

Thanks in advance.

aviroop · Answer

r u for the MBA program or the MBA/JD program?

There are many lawyers who apply, but not represented well enuf on this forum....

I would say there is no certainty that you will get into H/W/S....dont get me wrong, but there are a lot of lawyers who apply to the same program, so you wont be a unique applicant and get an edge over others. Also with your current state of success, you have to jutify very strongly why you need an MBA.

alrussell · Answer

Thanks - no I am already a qualified lawyer - I don't need to do a JD. 

When you say justify why I "need" it, what do you mean exactly? I don't need it to make a living, indeed I probably make as much now as I will after it, but I do need it to do other things, things that I am interested in, and moreover, I think it would teach me some valuable things that I haven't been exposed to elsewhere. 

I certainly wouldn't expect certainty - it seems to me it's something of a lottery, but I was curious whether my current "stats" so to speak put me in which a good chance?

dabots · Answer

i think pelihu is the resident expert on JD => MBA. he was a securities lawyer before going to Darden. may want to drop him a note, or hopefully he will find this thread. i dont think ive seen any lawyers from the uk though.

alrussell · Answer

Thanks - that's a help. 

Would being from the UK be a bad thing? 

i would have thought it might be a plus - I grew up in the Caribbean but am originally from the UK and have lived in a fair number of places - thought that might be something of a good thing given the desire for "diversity" I hear so much about?

Thanks!

hbs.aspirant · Answer

Just out of curiosity, what is it that you want to do and can not after getting a masters in law at Oxford and working with a top 10 NY law firm making same as you would after HBS, assuming you get in.

Of course, it is your personal information and you can ignore this post. Just that I always wanted to ask someone with STAR professional profile why they decide to go back to school.

riverripper · Answer

There in lies the only difficulty with your application. A school needs to know not only do they want you to be there but that you need them to reach your career goals. The more advanced your degree and career the harder it is to sell your need for an MBA. As long as you can really sell your need for an MBA you have a shot at every school.

aceman626 · Answer

The number one reason that super successful people want to go back to bschool is to take a break, move to a different environment, chill out, have fun and relive their college days, and meet new people, etc. 

The number two reason is simply degree collecting. It just looks much more impressive if you have, for example, Yale and HBS, then just Yale. Sort of to validate that they are indeed the elite of the elite. 

I am not talking about any person in particular, just in general.

alrussell · Answer

Thanks. 

Precisely what I want to do is not  entirely  clear - but I have a pretty good conception - essentially I want to be able to learn about, and then work in a far more entrepreneurial profession. Law is fine - but you are essentially a facilitator - you facilitate other people's decisions - your often not much more than a glorified bureaucrat. 

I have a notion of a few of the things I would like to do, and I would be better placed for all of them by doing the MBA. 

I appreciate everyone pointing out the issue though, as it helps me make note of the need to address it!

alrussell · Answer

Interesting to know - but it would be a fairly expensive break! I would be losing out on about $200k a year (so $400k) in salary, and paying about $150k over the two years in costs... I'd be better off taking a cruise!

I would also be very surprised if an MBA at HBS or Stanford would be that relaxing!

Degree collecting does, on paper, fit. But as said, I think it's just as feasible that, as I say, I am hoping to move careers and an MBA is one of the best possible routes to enable me to do so.

kwam · Answer

Don't you dare writing that on your essays or mentioning during interviews :lol:

. I think that academically your profile is strong. If you get a 700+ GMAT it will corroborate with your good undergrad and grad performance. But you should bear in mind that HBS and Stanford - together with Wharton - are the schools that usually are the most "picky" with other than just work experience and academic background, you will have to show community service and strong leadership experience - also outside work. Regarding your career goals, I believe you need to set a strong reason to have an MBA. Either it is because you want to open your own business - law firm or whatever else. In my opinion you do have chance in thoses schools, just need to tackle these points.

alrussell · Answer

Hah, thanks! Yes - I think I'll try something more along the lines of "looking for a new challenge" than "law is a bit of a waste of time and an intellectual black-hole".

I figured - not sure what I can show... I ran my own business (profit about 20k USD a year) when I was 13-18, and have started a number of charity projects within my firm - does that count? I recall hearing about the numerous navy seals and climbers of Everest within the ranks of HBS and Stanford... not really something I can compete with I don't think! What sort of level of additional element are they looking for? A well rounded person with interests and drive, or a Nobel peace prize winner, or at least where on that spectrum?

I think that's a fair and very helpful point. I will certainly need to prepare an honest and well thought out answer that that sort of question, as I am sure it’s one I will have to answer more than once. 

One particular route that I would most certainly like to use an MBA to venture down would be to start a PE/VC type operation in the Caribbean where there is a real dearth of such activity. 

I actually think my legal background will help somewhat, and that an MBA and the requisite experience it will give me will help make that sort of thing a real possibility. 

Thanks very much for your help though – it’s incredibly useful to get a strong conception of precisely what it is that I need to address.

kwam · Answer

I'm not sure Just to give you an idea, I worked for a company that has a program to send its future business leadears to MBA. In 20 years the company has sent so far around 350 employees, the sucesful rate with HBS is really VERY low. I just remember one employee who went there. People say taht the Chairman even got in touch with the HBS adcom to understand the reasons that their employees weren't getting accepted there, and the urban legend is that the answer was: "your employees are not going to MBA to change the world, but to keep climbing your corporate ledder!" Only god knows if that's true, just wanted to share. :wink:

alrussell · Answer

Again - a very useful insight - thanks! 

I think, or at least I hope, I can work some way to dispell that view in my case - mainly because if I really wanted merely to climb the corporate ladder, I would stay where I was and save about 1/2m USD... changing the world seems rather lofty, and a tad huburistic - not lest because there are almost 1000 people in HBS's intake - but I can certainly spell out ambitions somewhat beyond climbing someone's ladder!

riverripper · Answer

I met a guy who has an MBA and a Law Degree. (Yale Law followed by Wharton MBA). He is now a VP at and the lead counsel for a major private equity group. He had been working for the PE firm before as a lawyer but wanted to move up and have more say in the operations side of it. He had a clear reason for why he needed an MBA in his career since he wanted to move up in PE beyond just being a reviewer of contracts and stuff.

Career changing is common at all full time programs...but remember schools want people heading towards a goal not running away from an unhappy career.

alrussell · Answer

Also very helpful. I think the point is that I have benefited much from the legal profession, but would, like the guy you mention, really want to get involved with operations rather than merely guiding the decisions of other’s to their intended destinations. It’s about adding to my expertise as much as switching from one to another. 

But again, I think your comments certainly focus the mind as to what notions will need to be dispelled / concerns addressed. Thanks.

lepium · Answer

It's not. It's really demanding. I already need holidays from what I was expecting to be a 2 year holiday... The upside is that it's really enjoyable, not just mindless effort.

L.

alrussell · Answer

Enjoyable is what I am looking for (though I stress not the main reason I want to do an MBA)... 

I can't think anyone would look at it as a holiday...

pelihu · Answer

I think the challenge is that both Harvard and Stanford (especially Stanford) do not like to admit people who already have advanced degrees. If I recall, 2 years ago, Stanford admitted just 1 JD and 1 MD. I image there were probably 40-50 high quality applications from JDs for the 1 they admitted.

A second (perhaps related) issue is that H & S on average admit the youngest classes each year. Generally, people who have completed college, spent 3 years in law school (the US time frame) and worked for a few years are at the extreme high end for age that these schools admit. These are separate but related challenges.

Finally, as others have pointed out, you'll need to have a reason why you need an MBA. Business schools like to understand how you will put their degree for the glory of the school.

Just as a note, I applied to Stanford but was not asked to interview (JD from Michigan, 780 GMAT, low UGPA). I knew this would be a long shot because I really don't fit their profile. It would have been the same story for Harvard, so I just applied to one of them. I didn't read your post closely, but the most interesting part of your profile is that you spend time in the Caribbean. Are you British, or are you from the Caribbean? If you're from a small island somewhere (other than Great Britain

) your chances will be greatly improved.

alrussell · Answer

In the UK a law degree is not a postgraduate degree, though I do also have a 1 year masters in law.

I am currently 26, and would be 28 when I began.

I think there is certainly much to be said for the fact that to make the move into a business orientated career, I would indeed need an MBA, or at the very least it would be by far the most respected and reasonable route to take. I dont need it to make money, I need it to undertake the path I want to take.

I am a dual citizen and grew up in the west indies, though I am not a URM. Ideally, I might like to pursue PE/VC opportunities in the region, which I think an MBA would help no end with. 

Thanks for the advice / comments by the way - very helpful

Chances?

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