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ChiranjeevSingh
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ChiranjeevSingh

As per ChatGPT and Perplexity Pro the statements "X causes Y" or "It rains on Monday" don't indicate sufficiency (And I agree with these answers).

I feel AI tools tend to please the users, thats why the discrepancy. As mentioned earlier, I don't want to beleive AI tools blindly.

But doesn't it make sense?

If according to you "X causes Y" indicate sufficiency, then what about "X always causes Y"?

If according to you "It rains on Monday" indicate sufficiency then what about "Every Monday it rains"?




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Here's what Gemini Pro says (and I agree):

Feature"It rains on Monday""It generally rains on Monday"
Certainty100% (Absolute)~70-90% (High Probability)
ExceptionsNone implied.Exceptions are expected.
ToneFactual, Rule-based, Rigid.Descriptive, Observational.
Grammar NoteOften implies a specific Monday or a universal rule.Implies a habit occurring on Mondays (plural sense).

This is also the difference between "X causes Y" and "X generally causes Y"

Here's what Gemini Pro says (and I agree):

Feature"X causes Y""X generally causes Y"
Nature of LinkMechanical / AbsoluteStatistical / Tendency
ExceptionsExceptions prove the statement false.Exceptions are normal (outliers).
Predictive Power100% Certainty.High Probability.
ComplexitySimple system (A -> B).Complex system (A + others -> B).



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Per me,

"X causes Y" and "X always causes Y" mean the same.

'It rains on Monday" and "Every Monday it rains" mean the same.
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ChiranjeevSingh

As per ChatGPT and Perplexity Pro the statements "X causes Y" or "It rains on Monday" don't indicate sufficiency (And I agree with these answers).

I feel AI tools tend to please the users, thats why the discrepancy. As mentioned earlier, I don't want to beleive AI tools blindly.

But doesn't it make sense?

If according to you "X causes Y" indicate sufficiency, then what about "X always causes Y"?

If according to you "It rains on Monday" indicate sufficiency then what about "Every Monday it rains"?





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ChiranjeevSingh

Then does that mean "Smoking causes cancer". All smokers have cancer?

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Per me,

"X causes Y" and "X always causes Y" mean the same.

'It rains on Monday" and "Every Monday it rains" mean the same.

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"Smoking causes cancer" means that if you keep smoking, you will eventually have cancer. So, yes, all smokers will eventually have cancer.
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ChiranjeevSingh

Then does that mean "Smoking causes cancer". All smokers have cancer?


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ChiranjeevSingh

I think in our discussions, one of us is making a mistake in understanding the term sufficiency (most likely me, since you are an expert in this field).

I beleive sufficiency means the following: If there are two events A and B, and A is sufficient for B, then just by knowing the existence of a event A, I can tell the existence of event B with 100% guarantee. There will not exist an exceptional case where "A happens but B does not happen".

Qx: Similarly, with the satement "Smoking causes cancer" how can I tell it is sufficient if I find one person who smokes but does not get cancer?

You said if "you keep smoking you will eventually get cancer".

Here the event of "Smoking" did occur then why should I be concerned about "how long smoking lasts" if it is a sufficient to get cancer?

Qy: I would also like to know your perspective on this: Is there any difference between (a) "If you smoke you get cancer" and (b) "Smoking causes cancer"?

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

When I think about the question (Qy), I feel earlier I was trying to point out the sufficiency flaw in the statement "Smoking causes cancer" by showing that there exists one person who smokes but does not get cancer. If that is the case, then wouldn't it make above both statements (a) and (b) wrong?

Qz: So what is really going wrong here? Is it that I am mixing universally true statements (e.g. If you are a man then you are a human) with conditional Statements (e.g. If you smoke you get cancer)?

Am I implicitly adding "universally true" constraint on all conditional statements e.g. whenever I read "If X then Y" , I assume no exception exist since it is universally true.

But in case of "X causes Y", I don't apply the "universallly true" constraint because in real life I can find exceptions where people smokes and do not get cancer.


Qa: So what does "Sufficient" really mean then? Does a condition is sufficient only if it is universally true?


Before reading this article on Correlation to Causation, I was of the beleif that statements like "X causes Y", "X leads to Y" are different from "X implies Y" which is equivalent to "If X then Y" .

This belief was also supported by the fact that the negation of these statements are different: "X does not cause Y", "X does not lead to Y" compared to "Even if X, not Y".

Qb: If all these statements were the same, then why are their negation different?

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

To be honest, I am still confused and I cannot internalize "X causes Y" means "X is sufficient for Y" in the same way as I could do for "X implies Y" or "If X then Y".

ChiranjeevSingh
"Smoking causes cancer" means that if you keep smoking, you will eventually have cancer. So, yes, all smokers will eventually have cancer.

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I respect your persistence. If you are okay, we can get on a zoom call. We can then publish the video and paste the link on this thread for others.
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ChiranjeevSingh

I think in our discussions, one of us is making a mistake in understanding the term sufficiency (most likely me, since you are an expert in this field).

I beleive sufficiency means the following: If there are two events A and B, and A is sufficient for B, then just by knowing the existence of a event A, I can tell the existence of event B with 100% guarantee. There will not exist an exceptional case where "A happens but B does not happen".

Qx: Similarly, with the satement "Smoking causes cancer" how can I tell it is sufficient if I find one person who smokes but does not get cancer?

You said if "you keep smoking you will eventually get cancer".

Here the event of "Smoking" did occur then why should I be concerned about "how long smoking lasts" if it is a sufficient to get cancer?

Qy: I would also like to know your perspective on this: Is there any difference between (a) "If you smoke you get cancer" and (b) "Smoking causes cancer"?

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

When I think about the question (Qy), I feel earlier I was trying to point out the sufficiency flaw in the statement "Smoking causes cancer" by showing that there exists one person who smokes but does not get cancer. If that is the case, then wouldn't it make above both statements (a) and (b) wrong?

Qz: So what is really going wrong here? Is it that I am mixing universally true statements (e.g. If you are a man then you are a human) with conditional Statements (e.g. If you smoke you get cancer)?

Am I implicitly adding "universally true" constraint on all conditional statements e.g. whenever I read "If X then Y" , I assume no exception exist since it is universally true.

But in case of "X causes Y", I don't apply the "universallly true" constraint because in real life I can find exceptions where people smokes and do not get cancer.


Qa: So what does "Sufficient" really mean then? Does a condition is sufficient only if it is universally true?


Before reading this article on Correlation to Causation, I was of the beleif that statements like "X causes Y", "X leads to Y" are different from "X implies Y" which is equivalent to "If X then Y" .

This belief was also supported by the fact that the negation of these statements are different: "X does not cause Y", "X does not lead to Y" compared to "Even if X, not Y".

Qb: If all these statements were the same, then why are their negation different?

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

To be honest, I am still confused and I cannot internalize "X causes Y" means "X is sufficient for Y" in the same way as I could do for "X implies Y" or "If X then Y".


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ChiranjeevSingh

You are very kind, not only have you replied patiently to each of my queries over several days, but you are also now proposing a zoom call.

I would be really grateful if such a session could be arranged at your convinience, as it will help me as well as others (if any).

However, you should know in advance that I am an average student who has learned CR concepts such as sufficiency and neccessity more mechanically (using set theory) rather than pure comprehension as you do.

Each reply I have given to your answers has taken a considerable amount of time and thought, as well as some behind the scenes validation with AI tools.

That is why I am afraid, I may not be able to quickly answer any of the questions during zoom call in the same way it feels here in this forum discussion.

I have seen some of your videos on your website, and I know your teaching style is to ask question after question until the student accept where he or she has gone wrong. I am happy to be "roasted" by you if it enlightens me and helps me understand this concept crystal clear.

ChiranjeevSingh
I respect your persistence. If you are okay, we can get on a zoom call. We can then publish the video and paste the link on this thread for others.

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We will not be in a hurry. You can take your time during the session. Please email me at [email protected] so that we can coordinate the time for the session.

Causality and sufficient condition are interesting topics for me. Given your questions, I think I will also be able to dig deeper into these topics.
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ChiranjeevSingh

You are very kind, not only have you replied patiently to each of my queries over several days, but you are also now proposing a zoom call.

I would be really grateful if such a session could be arranged at your convinience, as it will help me as well as others (if any).

However, you should know in advance that I am an average student who has learned CR concepts such as sufficiency and neccessity more mechanically (using set theory) rather than pure comprehension as you do.

Each reply I have given to your answers has taken a considerable amount of time and thought, as well as some behind the scenes validation with AI tools.

That is why I am afraid, I may not be able to quickly answer any of the questions during zoom call in the same way it feels here in this forum discussion.

I have seen some of your videos on your website, and I know your teaching style is to ask question after question until the student accept where he or she has gone wrong. I am happy to be "roasted" by you if it enlightens me and helps me understand this concept crystal clear.


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