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agold
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solaris1

An MBA is going to open doors to a variety of careers, and if you pass on this opportunity once, it maybe very hard for you to return to it later on. If you want to do IB but decide on GM simply because it allows you more time to spend with your family, then you're not ever getting an opportunity to do IB again. If a bigger paycheck, some semblance of career growth, and lots of family time is really what you want, why bother with the Ultra Elite at all? Take away access to the choicest IB/MC/PE jobs and the alumni network, there's very little to distinguish the Ultra Elite from the other schools academically.

Given your profile, it seems entirely plausible a Near Elite or Trans Elite will offer you some kind of financial incentive to attend their program and still offer lucrative post-MBA career opportunities outside of IB/MC/PE. Someone mentioned Houston earlier on this thread, very smart suggestion, look at Rice as a safety perhaps?
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I agree 100%. If I was interested in a GM position, plenty of time to spend with the family, and a solid financial situation, I would cross every ultra elite off my list. I would apply to a collection of schools ranked between 15-35, primarily chosen by the geographic area that I was most interested in settling in, and I would just attend the one that gave me the highest scholarship amount. I would guess that GE or Pepsi would be glad to interview you for a GM position if you come from Pepperdine, Texas, Rice, Maryland, USC, BU/BC, or a similar school. These are exactly the kind of positions that grads of these schools end up - GM with F500s.

Pedigreed schools are unnecessary unless you plan on going into a pedigreed career path - which GM is anything but. Additionally, if you're not interested in NY or SF - arguably the 2 top choice cities for most MBAs, then a pedigreed school becomes even less important. Regional schools have regional influence - especially for GM positions.
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What you guys suggest is already what I'm considering. I have an opportunity to go to OU here and I think I'd be very competitive for a full scholarship. Even if I didn't get a full scholarship, the entire 2 years, for in-state tuition + books + fees is less than $20k. I wouldn't mind moving to Houston to work for an energy company. The pay in Houston is significantly higher than in OKC and the cost of living doesn't use up the higher income so you can live better on the same job. It's not worth my time to move my family across the country to a school that doesn't have a starting salary above $100k. Maybe if the school gave me a full scholarship it might be, but with OU here, I can still work full-time and get done in 2 years.

I do see a difference in the education of an UltraElite vs the others. The professors of these UE schools write the books that professors of other schools read to keep up to date. That makes a very big difference.

I'm seriously thinking of getting in, getting the highest paying job I can possibly get and working for 2 - 3 years. Live minimally with my family and get the debt paid off. Then I have the rest of my career to enjoy the income and find the job that may pay less but gives me the other benefits I desire. Or even start my own company (not that I'd likely see fewer hours, but I know I'd enjoy it immensely). I'll give my wife a week or so to digest what she and I discussed last night about taking a killer job for 2 -3 years after b-school. She really likes the idea of being debt free and does see the value for our long term happiness and opportunity for the family.

I"m at the point now where it's Ultra Elite/Elite or the University of Oklahoma Price School of Business (which would rank higher if they grew their program). Nothing in between really makes sense for my situation.

terp06
solaris1

An MBA is going to open doors to a variety of careers, and if you pass on this opportunity once, it maybe very hard for you to return to it later on. If you want to do IB but decide on GM simply because it allows you more time to spend with your family, then you're not ever getting an opportunity to do IB again. If a bigger paycheck, some semblance of career growth, and lots of family time is really what you want, why bother with the Ultra Elite at all? Take away access to the choicest IB/MC/PE jobs and the alumni network, there's very little to distinguish the Ultra Elite from the other schools academically.

Given your profile, it seems entirely plausible a Near Elite or Trans Elite will offer you some kind of financial incentive to attend their program and still offer lucrative post-MBA career opportunities outside of IB/MC/PE. Someone mentioned Houston earlier on this thread, very smart suggestion, look at Rice as a safety perhaps?

I agree 100%. If I was interested in a GM position, plenty of time to spend with the family, and a solid financial situation, I would cross every ultra elite off my list. I would apply to a collection of schools ranked between 15-35, primarily chosen by the geographic area that I was most interested in settling in, and I would just attend the one that gave me the highest scholarship amount.
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I don't think that's a bad idea. Apply to OU for R2 or whatever their version of that is and if you don't get into any of your R1 schools, go there instead. And if your wife is willing to put up with you being in school for 2 years and subsequently living "minimally" for 2-3 years, you're married to an angel :).

As pelihu has mentioned several times, being a full scholarship student at a slightly lower ranked school is sometimes better than being an average "High Pass" student at Wharton.
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She is an angel, sometimes and angel with horns, but overall, and angel. We got married very young (20 & 19) so she was never with me for the money. From talking to friends that have great jobs now, it's different to see them date a chick and a few times have dumped the chick when she turned out to be a gold digger. Most aren't like that, but for many of them, the financial stability my friend's have certainly makes up for them being ugly. that's at least what I tease them about. One of my friend's lives in Chicago and has a JD (tax law certificate), LLM (in tax law), CPA, and is going to apply to Kellogg or Chicago's PT (Chicago GSB does have PT right?) in a few years and his employer will pay for it all. He just got a promotion and is making about $175k a year + bonuses now. Some days I really envy him, but the last few times I've called him on Sunday afternoon he's been at the office.

$175k a year + bonuses + leash.
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QFT, exactly why I'm going to business school, and Ultra Elite at that - for the women. :-D

jallenmorris
Most aren't like that, but for many of them, the financial stability my friend's have certainly makes up for them being ugly. that's at least what I tease them about.
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terp06
I agree 100%. If I was interested in a GM position, plenty of time to spend with the family, and a solid financial situation, I would cross every ultra elite off my list. I would apply to a collection of schools ranked between 15-35, primarily chosen by the geographic area that I was most interested in settling in, and I would just attend the one that gave me the highest scholarship amount. I would guess that GE or Pepsi would be glad to interview you for a GM position if you come from Pepperdine, Texas, Rice, Maryland, USC, BU/BC, or a similar school. These are exactly the kind of positions that grads of these schools end up - GM with F500s.

Pedigreed schools are unnecessary unless you plan on going into a pedigreed career path - which GM is anything but. Additionally, if you're not interested in NY or SF - arguably the 2 top choice cities for most MBAs, then a pedigreed school becomes even less important. Regional schools have regional influence - especially for GM positions.
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Terp do you like to make things up? A lot of your post come across as if you know they are fact even though you obviously did zero research.

GM positions definitely go for brands. Where do you think Pepsi and GE hire most of their MBAs from? Ultra Elites and Elites like Chicago, Kellogg, Cornell, etc...You may get lucky and be the one guy hired out of Pepperdine but chances are going to be far far worse than someone coming from GSB.

Let me tell you from researching for GM positions brand name matters if you want to go to the top companies in their industries. The huge Fortune 50 companies will recruit at a list of schools very similar to the bulge bracket banks and major MC companies. Fortune 200s will recruit at only a handful of top schools, they will definitely take a look at another elite/ultraelite if they dont recruit there but breaking in to a good position out of a school ranked in the 30s is going to be very tough. Sure not all companies recruit at the top schools but neither do all banks or consulting firms.

GM certainly is a pedigree career path. Look at the top companies and see where many of the senior executives went...top undergrads, or top MBAs/JDs. Yes people with no brand names on their resume can work their way up but its far less common. Thats like saying brand doesnt matter in banking or consulting but basing that statement only on looking at small boutiques where that is probably somewhat true. GM is not PE but getting into the top companies is no cake walk and they wont be excited to interview someone just because they are getting MBA.
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Are there really concrete statistics to back where "most" of the GM hiring is done?

I don't know if this is true or not, but according to my former boss (a GE alumnus) the University of Connecticut feeds more MBAs into GE (headquarters Fairfield, CT) than any other New York City metro area school. Simply because UConn grads don't have the pick of IB and MC offers Columbia, NYU, Cornell and to a lesser extent Yale grads have. So they are more willing to commit to employers like GE Capital.

PepsiCo hires MBAs at Harvard, Duke, Rice, Penn State and Georgia. What does that really tell you? Not much unless we can confirm that it was 30 hires at Harvard and 1 at Georgia. And even if it were just the 1 hire at Georgia, I'm sure a full scholarship student would stand out.

riverripper
Where do you think Pepsi and GE hire most of their MBAs from?
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solaris1
Are there really concrete statistics to back where "most" of the GM hiring is done?

I don't know if this is true or not, but according to my former boss (a GE alumnus) the University of Connecticut feeds more MBAs into GE (headquarters Fairfield, CT) than any other New York City metro area school. Simply because UConn grads don't have the pick of IB and MC offers Columbia, NYU, Cornell and to a lesser extent Yale grads have. So they are more willing to commit to employers like GE Capital.

PepsiCo hires MBAs at Harvard, Duke, Rice, Penn State and Georgia. What does that really tell you? Not much unless we can confirm that it was 30 hires at Harvard and 1 at Georgia. And even if it were just the 1 hire at Georgia, I'm sure a full scholarship student would stand out.

riverripper
Where do you think Pepsi and GE hire most of their MBAs from?
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Agreed. Sure, they'd love to have kids from HBS or Stanford, but the real question is whether or not people from HBS or Stanford are willing to go work for one of these companies in a slow, stagnant, GM role and give up the fast-track careers in IB/MC.

I heavily disagree with the comment that most senior executives at F500's are made up of top MBAs. The only school that has a statistically significant number of senior executives at F500's in HBS. Everything else is pretty much an anomaly. If we're looking for concretate statistics on entry-level post-MBA GM hiring, I don't personally have them. But the below article sheds some light on backgrounds of senior executives. Pedigree doesn't mean squat to the middle managers who you would likely be reporting to fresh out of Kellogg.

https://online.wsj.com/article/SB1158538 ... n+the+Lead
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Now now, you're really trying to rile riverripper up! :-D

Play nice.

terp06
in a slow, stagnant, GM role and give up the fast-track careers in IB/MC.
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Entry to MC/IB aside, I think a big benefit of a top-15 school is the flexibility it gives you to get hired at these companies regardless of location. So even if you go to Columbia, you have the option to be a viable candidate at companies that aren't based out of NY. If you went to UConn, sure GE might be an option for you but the Atlanta-hq of Coke wouldn't be as doable.

So if you know that you're always going to stay in a certain area, then a regional school makes sense. If you want more flexibility to move around, then a top-15 school is maybe a better option.

just my two cents :)
ac.

solaris1
Are there really concrete statistics to back where "most" of the GM hiring is done?

I don't know if this is true or not, but according to my former boss (a GE alumnus) the University of Connecticut feeds more MBAs into GE (headquarters Fairfield, CT) than any other New York City metro area school. Simply because UConn grads don't have the pick of IB and MC offers Columbia, NYU, Cornell and to a lesser extent Yale grads have. So they are more willing to commit to employers like GE Capital.

PepsiCo hires MBAs at Harvard, Duke, Rice, Penn State and Georgia. What does that really tell you? Not much unless we can confirm that it was 30 hires at Harvard and 1 at Georgia.

riverripper
Where do you think Pepsi and GE hire most of their MBAs from?
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riverripper
terp06
GM certainly is a pedigree career path. Look at the top companies and see where many of the senior executives went...top undergrads, or top MBAs/JDs. Yes people with no brand names on their resume can work their way up but its far less common.
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It depends what you define as "top companies". If you mean the whole of the Fortune 500, I would say that your comment is blatantly incorrect. It is more common to find non-pedigreed backgrounds than it is pedigreed ones.

Here's another article for reference:

https://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... 9_2661.htm

Q: Do you think potential employers have any bias toward Ivy League schools? Or is it a question of looking at a wider variety of students from a wider variety of institutions?
A: Yes, they're looking at a wider variety of institutions, and the reason is that as other jobs got more attractive, the large corporations had a harder time hiring at the elite schools. Frankly, I think they get their feelings hurt. It sounds odd to say that, but I've seen that over and over. When the market was tight, people would come to Wharton, and couldn't hire. They couldn't get people to take their jobs. They weren't as attractive.

When the market turned down, they could have come back and hired people, but they wouldn't. They got their feelings hurt. It's not an entirely rational process, but they still feel that they really want to go places that want them.
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Yeah, I agree...this list of non-HBS MBA people is quite pathetic:

[edit] Hedge Funds/Private Equity
Robert L. Berner III, partner, CVC Capital Partners, a global private equity firm
T. Bondurant French, Founder and CEO of Adams Street Partners, one of the world's largest private equity fund-of-funds
Stephen G. Woodsum, Founder and Managing Partner of Summit Partners, one of the world's largest growth capital firms
David Kabiller, Founding Principal of AQR Capital Management, one of the world's largest hedge funds ($35 billion in assets)
Harry M. Jansen Kraemer, Jr., Executive Partner of Madison Dearborn Partners
Jack S. Levin, Senior Partner at Kirkland & Ellis, and author of Structuring Venture Capital, Private Equity, and Entrepreneurial Transactions and Mergers, Acquisitions, and Buyouts, textbooks that are taught at dozens of business schools and law schools
Jeffrey Ubben, Founding Member and Managing Partner of ValueAct Capital, Hedge Fund
Michael Haddad, Managing Director of Caxton Associatesa New York-based trading and investment firm
Thomas McCauley, CEO/CIO North Sound Capital, Hedge Fund

[edit] Professional Service
Edwin G. Booz, founder of Booz Allen Hamilton consultancy
James L. Allen, founder of Booz Allen Hamilton consultancy, and namesake of the Kellogg School's executive education center
Arthur Andersen, founder of the auditing firm bearing his name
Ken Danieli, brand strategist and principal, Danieli Consulting, LLC, strategy & branding consultancy, Pepsi Stuff creator
Jack S. Levin, senior partner at Kirkland & Ellis, and author of Structuring Venture Capital, Private Equity, and Entrepreneurial Transactions and Mergers, Acquisitions, and Buyouts, textbooks that are taught at dozens of business schools and law schools
Edwin C. Gage III, chairman and CEO of Gage Marketing Group, LLC
Virginia A. Clarke, director of Spencer Stuart
Robert C. Knuepfer, international partner at Baker & McKenzie
Susan G. Rosenstein, president of Susan Rosenstein Executive Search Limited
Mark A. Shapiro, principal of New England Consulting Group
Ben Perks, CFO of Navigant Consulting
Michael Tower, managing director North America at AT Kearney
John Livingston, managing Director Chicago Office, McKinsey & Co
Michael D. Lyman, executive vice president and chief strategy officer, Global Management Consulting, BearingPoint

[edit] Financial Services
Joseph E. Hasten '78 - President & CEO, ShoreBank; former Vice Chairman, U.S. Bancorp
Jerome P. Kenney, Vice Chairman and Member, Executive Client Coverage Group of Merrill Lynch, one of the world's largest investment banks
Patrick Ryan, Founder and Executive Chairman of Aon Corporation, one of the world's largest insurance companies
Wayne E. Hedien, Chairman Emeritus of Allstate Insurance Company
Craig Donohue, CEO of Chicago Mercantile Exchange, one of the world's largest commodities and derivatives exchanges
Leland C. Brendsel, Chairman and CEO Emeritus of Freddie Mac
Andrew Duff, CEO of Piper Jaffray
Chris Peacock, CEO Emeritus of Jones Lang LaSalle, one of the world's leading real estate firms
Stephen W. Baird, President & CEO of Baird & Warner Inc.
Donald C. Clark, Chairman Emeritus of Household International
Alan J. Weber, Chairman & CEO Emeritus of U.S. Trust Corporation
William A. Osborn, Chairman and CEO of Northern Trust Corporation
Scott C. Evans, CFO of TIAA-CREF
Steven E. Buller, CFO of Blackrock
A. John Gambs, CFO Emeritus of Charles Schwab
Robert J. Simmons, CFO of E*TRADE Financial
Martha Coolidge Boudos, CFO of Morningstar
Paul J. Krump, COO of Chubb Commercial Insurance
David P. Bolger, EVP, CFO and Chief Administrative Officer of Aon Corporation
Yung-Ku Ha, CEO of Citibank Korea
Thomas J. Wilson, President and CEO of Allstate Insurance Company

[edit] Venture Capital
Promod Haque, Managing Partner at Norwest Venture Partners and winner of Forbes magazine's Midas Award for venture capitalist of the year.
Stephen G. Woodsum, Founder and Managing Partner of Summit Partners
Matt McCall, Founder and Managing Partner of Draper Fisher Jurvetson / Portage Ventures
James O'Connor, Jr., Founder of Motorola Ventures
L. Scott Minick, Managing Director of ARCH Venture Partners
Scott Halstead, General Partner at Morgan Stanley Venture Partners
John Chapman, General Partner at Techno Venture Management
Tod H. Francis, General Partner of Shasta Ventures
David Mayer, General Partner at Thoma Cressey Equity Partners
Gordon Pan, General Partner at Baird Venture Partners
E. Scott Crist, Founder & Managing Director of Crist Ventures
Patrick Pollard, President and Managing Director of BlueStar Ventures LP
James Dugan, CEO and General Partner of OCA Ventures

[edit] Technology
Christopher Galvin, ex-CEO and Chairman Emeritus of Motorola
Darko Dejanovic, Executive Vice President and Global CIO of Monster Worldwide
Mark Randall Goldston, CEO of United Online
Jim Safka, CEO of Match.com
Kent J. Lindstrom, President & COO of Friendster
J. Scott Etzler, President & CEO of InterCall
Jim Rose, Chairman and CEO Emeritus of QXL.com
Jeffrey Jackson, CFO of Sabre Holdings, parent company of Travelocity and other online travel brands
Cedric Loiret-Bernal, Former CEO, Board Member of NanoInk
Laurance A. Spear, Founder of Go2Call.com
Stephen Hafner, Founder and CEO of Kayak.com
C. David Moll, CEO of Webroot Software
Robert Wayman, former CFO of Hewlett Packard
David W. Devonshire, CFO of Motorola
Robert P. Dotson, President & CEO, T-Mobile USA
Andrew Cherry, CFO of SpinVox

[edit] Consumer Goods
Douglas R. Conant, President and CEO of Campbell Soup Company
Walter Scott, former Chairman of Diageo, CEO of Ameriprise Financial, Inc., CFO of the Pillsbury Company, and Associate Director for Economics and Government at the United States Office of Management and Budget
Richard H. Lenny, Chairman, President, & CEO of The Hershey Company
Phil Marineau, CEO of Levi Strauss & Co. (1999-2006)
Robert Eckert, CEO of Mattel
Raymond F. Farley, President and CEO Emeritus of S.C. Johnson & Son, Inc.
Robert H. Beeby, Retired CEO of Frito-Lay, Inc
William D. Smithburg, Retired Chairman and CEO of The Quaker Oats Company
Sheryl O'Loughlin, CEO of Clif Bar Inc.
Ronald C. Kesselman, President & CEO of Elmer’s Products, Inc.
Kevin Kotecki, CEO of Pabst Brewing Company
Paul Tate, SVP & CFO of Frontier Airlines

[edit] Retail
Gordon I. Segal, Founder & CEO of Otto Group's Crate & Barrel
Steve Odland, Chairman and CEO of Office Depot
Gregory P. Josefowicz, Chairman and CEO of Borders Group
Joseph M. DePinto, President and CEO of Seven-Eleven
Gregg Steinhafel, President of Target Corporation
Brad Blum, CEO Emeritus of Burger King
Dennis R. Farrow, COO of IHOP Corp.
Daniel M. Smith, President & CEO of Jillian’s Entertainment Corp.
Selim Bassoul, Chairman and CEO of Middleby Corp
Thomas P. Cawley, CFO of Peet's Coffee & Tea, Inc.
Christine Lansing, CMO of Peet's Coffee & Tea, Inc.
Mark Berey, CFO of Giant Food
Lawerence F. Levy, Chairman of Levy Restaurants

[edit] Health care and biotechnology
Harry M. Jansen Kraemer, Jr., Chairman and CEO Emeritus of Baxter International
Colleen A. Goggins, Worldwide Chairman of Johnson & Johnson Consumer Products
Jerry K. Myers, President and CEO Emeritus of SleepMed Inc
Brian Pereira, CEO of Tufts-NE Medical Center
Joseph C. Papa, Chairman & CEO of Cardinal Health
George Fotiades, President & COO of Cardinal Health
Gary A. Lyons, President and CEO of Neurocrine Biosciences
Ivette Estrada, CEO of Resurrection Healthcare
Haruo Naito, President and CEO of Eisai Pharmaceuticals
Matthew Songer, CEO and founder of Pioneer Surgical Technology
Jeff Gerard, CFO of Sutter Health
Thomas C. Freyman, CFO of Abbott Labs
John J. Greisch, CFO of Baxter International
Dr. Robert I. Lufrano, Chairman & CEO, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida
Andrew Guggenhime, SVP and CFO of PDL Biopharma
Harry L. Jones, SVP & Chief Compliance Officer, ENH
William A. Sanger, Chairman and CEO, Emergency Medical Services Corporation

[edit] Media, entertainment, and information services
Sheraton Kalouria President, Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia Television
Theodore Peter Phillips, President and CEO of the Chicago Bears
Kenard Gibbs, President of Vibe Magazine
W.C. Korn, Former President and CEO of CBS Stations Group
Michael George, President and CEO of QVC
Scott C. Smith, President and Publisher of the Chicago Tribune
David Shaffer, CEO of Thomson Financial
Paul Johnson, President & Publisher of Kelley Blue Book
John J. Lewis, President and CEO of AC Nielsen USA
Linda Johnson Rice, President and CEO of Johnson Publishing
Philippe Blatter, CEO of Infront Sports & Media
Henry W. Adams, Founder & CEO of Sportvision
Bruce P. Boren, President and CEO of Televisa Networks
Robert Birge, Chief Marketing Officer of IMG Sports & Entertainment
Joseph M. Vrankin, CFO of the Arena Football League
James J. Palos, President of the Institute for Media and Entertainment
James M. Rose, CEO of Media Planning Group
Raymond L. Gellein, Chairman & Co-CEO, Starwood Vacation Ownership, Inc
David A. Donatelli, Executive Vice President, Storage Product Operations, EMC Corporation

[edit] Industry
James Keyes, CEO Emeritus of Johnson Controls
Fred Kindle, President and CEO of the ABB Group, the world's largest engineering firm
J. Stephen Simon, President of ExxonMobil Refining & Supply Company
David Speer, President and CEO of Illinois Tool Works
Tadahiro Yoshida, President and CEO of YKK Corporation
John W. Seiple, Jr., President & COO of ProLogis
Pamela Forbes Lieberman, CEO Emeritus of TruServ Corporation
John J. Zillmer, Chairman and CEO of Allied Waste
Stephen R. Wilson, Chairman, President and CEO of CF Industries
Terrell K. Crews, CFO of Monsanto
Thomas E. Bergmann, CFO of Harley-Davidson
John H. Tate, CFO of Frontier Airlines
Jeffrey L. Keefer, CFO of DuPont
Andrew Fastow, former CFO, Enron
William G. Walter, Chairman of the Board, President and CEO of FMC Corporation

[edit] Government
John Hoeven, Governor of North Dakota [1]
Andrew Maner, CFO of the Department of Homeland Security
Somkid Jatusripitak, Minister of Finance of Thailand
Ali Babacan, Minister of State for the Economy of Turkey
Jye-Cherng "Joseph" Lyu, Minister of Finance of Taiwan
Anwar Ul-Haq Ahady, Minister of Finance of Afghanistan
Cesar Purisima, Secretary of Trade & Industry, Republic of the Philippines
Carole Brown, Chairperson of the Chicago Transit Authority

[edit] Academia
Thomas S. Robertson, Dean of the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania
Glen L. Urban, Dean Emeritus of MIT Sloan School of Management.
Sally Blount-Lyon, Dean, NYU Stern School of Business Undergraduate College

These are all Kellogg grads.
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jallenmorris
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Family + Post-MBA Career = Oil + Water 19 Aug 2008, 09:42
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Who do you think is going to get the nod for promotions and extra responsibility? I'm going to look to people that got the top MBA for a variety of reasons. Those people are screened by the schools. They have stellar resumes, etc. There is a reason the top schools reject 85% - 90% of applicants.

terp06
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GM certainly is a pedigree career path. Look at the top companies and see where many of the senior executives went...top undergrads, or top MBAs/JDs. Yes people with no brand names on their resume can work their way up but its far less common.

It depends what you define as "top companies". If you mean the whole of the Fortune 500, I would say that your comment is blatantly incorrect. It is more common to find non-pedigreed backgrounds than it is pedigreed ones.

Here's another article for reference:

https://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... 9_2661.htm

Q: Do you think potential employers have any bias toward Ivy League schools? Or is it a question of looking at a wider variety of students from a wider variety of institutions?
A: Yes, they're looking at a wider variety of institutions, and the reason is that as other jobs got more attractive, the large corporations had a harder time hiring at the elite schools. Frankly, I think they get their feelings hurt. It sounds odd to say that, but I've seen that over and over. When the market was tight, people would come to Wharton, and couldn't hire. They couldn't get people to take their jobs. They weren't as attractive.

When the market turned down, they could have come back and hired people, but they wouldn't. They got their feelings hurt. It's not an entirely rational process, but they still feel that they really want to go places that want them.
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agold
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Family + Post-MBA Career = Oil + Water 19 Aug 2008, 09:44
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jallenmorris
Who do you think is going to get the nod for promotions and extra responsibility? I'm going to look to people that got the top MBA for a variety of reasons. Those people are screened by the schools. They have stellar resumes, etc. There is a reason the top schools reject 85% - 90% of applicants.
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Do you actually believe that managers look at people's educational backgrounds out in the field after the hiring process has commenced? The most I have ever seen is casual cocktail party banter. I'm not sure if things are different over at the GE's and Pepsi's of the world, but I would bet not. I know that applicants get caught up in the prestige and pedigree game and that's why we're all applying to these schools - but the reality is that noone cares out in the field. The main question that is asked is "What have you done for me lately?", followed pretty closely by "Do I like this guy?". "Where did he go to school" is probably the 10th or 11th consideration on the list of priorities in evaluating a subordinate, if it makes the list at all (which it won't if the person making the decision doesn't come from a pedigreed background).
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terp06

Do you actually believe that managers look at people's educational backgrounds out in the field after the hiring process has commenced? Yes. When people are considered for promotions, their resumes are sent to hiring managers of that department with the vacancy. The background is reviewed on the resume and discussed in the interview. Very similar to when being hired to a company the first time. Background is evidence of performance and ability. Performance within the company + education background is important regardless of which rung on the ladder you currently are on.The most I have ever seen is casual cocktail party banter. Then you need to get out more. Stop going to cocktail parties where people are so full of themselves they have nothing else to discuss but themselves. I've been to those types of cocktail parties and it makes me laugh that someone can be that anti-social.I'm not sure if things are different over at the GE's and Pepsi's of the world, but I would bet not. I know that applicants get caught up in the prestige and pedigree game and that's why we're all applying to these schools - but the reality is that noone cares out in the field. So what is your motivation for applying to these schools? People care "out in the field" which is why peer review and recruiter surveys rank some schools higher. Those headhunters are out in the field. The recruiters are out in the field. The end result is employees "in the field". This demand and reputation drive so much of everything else. If people didn't prefer HBS MBA's over others, who would want to go to HBS? Not me. I want to be in demand (by people in the field that care about my "pedigree" as shallow as that may be) when I graduate. The main question that is asked is "What have you done for me lately?", followed pretty closely by "Do I like this guy?". "Where did he go to school" is probably the 10th or 11th consideration on the list of priorities in evaluating a subordinate, if it makes the list at all (which it won't if the person making the decision doesn't come from a pedigreed background). The list Kellogg alumni that are now C-level executives, and HBS CEO's should show you that people in position of authority DO come from pedigreed backgrounds. So if you're saying it only matters if the person hiring cares about pedigree, then it's all going to flow downhill. The person the CFO hires under him/her will be pedigree because under your logic they come from pedigree and therefore care about pedigree. So #2 under CFO is pedigree because CFO is pedigree and cares (again, your logic). So #2 hires #3 and since #2 is pedigree, #2 also hires pedigree. See the logical flow? Soon we have mailroom clerks that are top-tier MBA grads because everyone cares about pedigree. My point is that your logic is flawed. You cannot say that only people that are pedigree care about pedigree. You're right to the extent that those that are capable get hired. I go one step further and claim that more often than not, those that are capable are going to come from pedigree backgrounds. It may not be that they are more capable than others, but they will have higher expectations when hried from the top schools; therefore, when they meet and/or exceed those expectations, they keep getting more responsibility and chances for advancement. The others from non-top schools may be capable, but aren't given the chance. Is this fair? Maybe not. Does it have to be fair? No. Is this why I care? Absolutely.
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Even if they don't look at people's backgrounds (which is hard to believe they would not look when they would see it on the resume when considering people for promotion, and it's unlikely that you'll get anyone to admit "I promoted Joe because he's a Yale grad.") These individuals are also likely to have performance history to justify the promotion. I don't think that list of C-Level alumni from Kellogg got there JUST because they are Kellogg grads. However, I do believe those individuals deserved the position they have by the quality of their work. I think that many more people are going to have a better shot coming from a top-tier MBA program than from a lower one. First, the top-tier grads are going to get more responsibility earlier in their careers, likely right out of school. This makes them stand out from others. Is this a matter of circumstances? Yes and no. If the Kellogg MBA gets them that opportunity, good for them. The other employees with lower MBAs should have tried to get into a better school. In the end, no matter what opportunities are afforded us because of the school we were admitted to and subsequently chose to attend, we have to perform when it counts or the opportunity is squandered.

It might be just my perspective, but Terp06, it seems like most of the threads you post to seem to get off topic rather quickly.
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Family + Post-MBA Career = Oil + Water 19 Aug 2008, 10:23
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Eek. I quit. Too hard to respond to a post with all of that red and my response intermingled with yours.

As I've mentioned to you before - just do your research and figure out what companies you want to work for, where they recruit, etc. and figure out what would work the best for you. In my opinion, you would come out significantly ahead financially out of a regional program. If I still had outstanding educational debt and wanted a career in general management - I would find it very difficult to justify attending any school without looking extremely closely at the cost structure and the ROI.
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Family + Post-MBA Career = Oil + Water 19 Aug 2008, 10:48
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Super intense thread morris....... Has all the ingredients of a gr8 Indian blockbuster...... family, romance, drama, ambition, planning, fight sequences, sacrificing, you name it, the thread has all that and more!!! :P

And it sure scared the sh** off me about the sort of hard lives you guys are talking about and on second thoughts I actually have started liking the fact that I work for myself at a small scale. :oops: Actually these are the worst nightmares a 24-year old single can get: Huge debt, living minimally, wife & 2 kids, long hours without adequate pay, household tensions et all.

Good night you all...... Nightmare time..... :twisted:
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Family + Post-MBA Career = Oil + Water 19 Aug 2008, 10:53
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When i say living minimally, I'm talking about living so that $70k - $80k (counting bonuses) can go towards debt. If I get a job making $125k, I'm talking about living on $70k of that and putting the rest towards debt. For a single guy, it's going to be totally different.

Also, don't forget that in my situation, I have law school debt to pay off as well. Not as many people in b-school also have law debt to add to b-school debt.
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Family + Post-MBA Career = Oil + Water 19 Aug 2008, 10:58
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devansh_god
Super intense thread morris....... Has all the ingredients of a gr8 Indian blockbuster...... family, romance, drama, ambition, planning, fight sequences, sacrificing, you name it, the thread has all that and more!!! :P
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I say it lacks dancing to make it big on Bollywood.

In any case, I do think that graduates of UE has better chance at the senior management level. I think it is easier to be parachuted onto those positions than to move up from within.
I also agree that once you are in the company, only the performance counts. Your pedigree doesn't hold enough water for that promotion if the performance cannot match up with that shiny HBS degree.

So, I guess the real issue is: what level of GM are you talking about?
Division, local branch office, CEO?
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$125k in most states with a state tax would likely be $75k after taxes. If you're talking $125k after taxes, wouldn't that come out to be in excess of $200k per annum? Or does the fact that you're married and have kids make the tax bill significantly lesser?

jallenmorris
If I get a job making $125k, I'm talking about living on $70k of that and putting the rest towards debt. For a single guy, it's going to be totally different.
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