Is 99% GMAT enough for Top 3?

Question

Hi, 
I haven't had much time to investigate the nuances of the admissions process for business school. I currently attend a T-15 Law School and I'm interested in applying to b school after I take the bar. 

The thing is, I'm pretty good at admissions tests. I scored in the 98th percentile on the LSAT and did well enough on a practice GMAT. The verbal section on the GMAT is actually a watered down version of the LSAT's verbal section. 

So, the question I have is: 

Will a high enough GMAT score be enough to get into a top b school? I don't feel like jumping through all the bullshit hoops like I had to for law school. I don't mind interviewing. I've had a crap load of experience with interviewing vis-a-vis OCIP. 

But I have little work experience and little EC's. I do have vast experience as a day trader though. I don't know how much that helps

Advice would be appreciated. 

Thx, 
The ****

lhotseface · Answer

GMAT by itself won't get you in. An average GMAT may keep you out of a 
top school. Getting in to a top 3 school will require demonstrated leadership, solid work experience and well rounded extracurriculars backed by introspective essays. If GMAT was the most important criteria, many of us would have been at Harvard. As someone said, a great GMAT may help but a bad score will definitely hurt.

fukwad · Answer

How much would lack of work experience hurt? How much does the interviewing process help? For Law School, it was pretty much all LSAT. You had to be in the 97-99 percentile to get into a t-15 school. GPA, WE, EC, & LR were all fluff. In other words, soft factors offered little help. 

So which one of these factors would you say weighs must heavily, in relative importance, for admissions committees at top business schools? 

Is it impossible to get in with little experience? I hear that work experience is required at b schools. Is that true? Thanks for your help. 

I'm trying to get a feel for the b-school applicant sub-culture. I know the Law School applicant sub-culture was huge.

rhyme · Answer

I always say: A mediocre GMAT can keep you out, but a strong GMAT can't get you in. 

Its truly a combination of elements - GMAT, EC, recs, experience, goals, demonstrated leadership, etc. 

A key element for you will be to explain why, after obtaining a JD, you seek to obtain an MBA.

fukwad · Answer

I see. I hate law school. That's my reason. Law = Bullshit. They work you to death, and pay you nothing. I decided that B-School was for me when I did my on-campus interviewing, and found out they want us to 70 hrs/week for a measly 125K a year. That's low when you consider the working hours. That's the real reason. Also, I have been day trading for years, and have just now realized that some MBA programs offer specializations in finance. I looked at some of the classes being offered at my school's MBA program, and noticed that those courses are directly pertinent to the types of things I do as a daytrader. I don't know whether this type of explanation will be good enough. I'll probably have to conjure up some BS story that is more palletable to an admissions committee. See, this is the type of b.s. I wanted to avoid. Oh well. Admissions. What could you do? Honesty never seems to help with them. :-D

pelihu · Answer

If by top 3 you mean Harvard, Stanford & Wharton, then no, not a chance. In fact, I can tell you that your JD will definitely hurt you when applying for Harvard or Stanford. At Wharton, it's a non-factor at best. For example, Stanford only admitted 1 JD & 1 MD last year (might have been stats for the year before). I would bet big money that the JD was from Harvard, Stanford or Yale. When you say you are getting a JD from a top 15, I will assume that means not top 10 or top 5. Top business schools would view it as diluting their brand.

As others pointed out, you will need to decisively show why you need an MBA after doing nothing with your JD. You will also need to demonstrate past leadership & teamwork - preferably in a business setting. Interviewing will only be a factor if you can overcome these other challenges to actually earn an interview.

For most of the top 15 or so schools, the three years you have spent obtaining a top 15 JD will, at best, be considered a non-factor. Three years of work experience would be infinitely more valuable for a business school application. Business school admissions is different that law school. The other stuff actually matters for business school.

For the record, I have a JD from Michigan and 2 years of work experience with AMLAW 15 firms in LA & NY. I also launched my own business 4 years ago and I have a 780 on the GMAT. I consider myself not competitive at Harvard, a long shot at Stanford; we'll see about Wharton.

dukes · Answer

No offense, but how the heck did you not know this? Most outsiders have a basic understanding of what starting law firm salaries and hours are. Also, if you did your research on b-school jobs you'd know that the situation isn't much better for MBA grads. A typical post MBA job from a top school pays about 100-120 with 55-70 hours a week. Is that really worth another 2 years of school?

fukwad · Answer

I see. Thanks for the help. I guess I could just try my best. Wasn't the news I wanted to hear, but it seems like it's the reality. You're now the third person to tell me GMAT isn't enough. 

Thanks, 
the fukwad

lepium · Answer

4th person here...GMAT alone is nowhere enough for top 15 B-schools. However, within the top 30-40 (out of 1,000+), you may find some programs which are willing to compromise other issues to get high-GMAT scorers. These programs are generally referred to as "GMAT whores". For all I know, they are not always the same programs, some may engage on this activity for a few years trying to get rankings up (avg. GMAT is one of the many criteria to evaluate selectivity or quality of applicants in rankings). Yet again, even when applying to these schools, you'll be competing against other people with high GMATs so 99% will work but 90% may not. Check these links. Both give different views on the application process and the factors involved (1st link is from this forum): https://www.gmatclub.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=19450 https://www.mbaapplicant.com Hope it helps. L.

GMATT73 · Answer

Fukwad, 

Assuming you're about 25~26 years old and just about to complete L3 with zero full time professional work experience under your belt, then realistically spreaking, even if you aced the GMAT, you probably would have about a 1% chance of being offered admissions at H/S/W. Work experience is one of the key factors that adcoms use to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

Have you considered knucking down for a few years and then applying? We all have to go through that dreaded grunt stage at some point in time in our careers, so you might as well face the dragon now. $125K isn't too shabby of a start.

gmatmba · Answer

Also, not to be too rough on you, but your reason of seeking an MBA because you hate Law will definitely keep you out of top 10 business schools - so dont even mention it. Moreover, your focus on your essays would have to be - what you want to do after business school, why are you so very passionate about doing that (based on passed experience? you need to know how you conclude what you want to do), and why that MBA degree will help you. But these are things that can be worked on and improved - so if you ace the gmat and then put in 1-2 years work to develop these areas you may have a better chance.

fukwad · Answer

Thanks for the links. The b-school admissions process really seems to be based on a holistic evaluation rather than just on the numbers. Law School admissions will try to make you believe that it's a full evaluation when in reality it's all the LSAT. Not even GPA matters for law school - it could only hurt you.

I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet, and work as a god forsaken attorney for some time before applying to b-school.

fukwad · Answer

Thanks for the reply. I have a separte but somewhat related issue. If I take 4-6 MBA courses at a t-10 business school prior to applying, and I do well in those courses, would that tend to help at all? How about at the specific MBA program itself? Our law school allows us to take courses outside of the law school for credit. I was thinking about taking a bunch of business school classes before graduating. 

Do you think this might help? Thanks.

ap663 · Answer

I doubt it, you won't be able to transfer them in unless you stay at the same school. As long as your undergrad record and test scores are good you'll satisfy the academic portion of the review. If you're dead set on going to b-school straight after law school then why don't you see if you can work something out with the school you're in now?

fukwad · Answer

That's true. But I didn't know how much I would really hate the work. One really has to love law to do it. Otherwise, you'll just want to hang yourself. That's why there is such a high drop out rate at law firms. I think only like 5-10% of those entering Big Law ever make partner or even continue practicing after a few years. 

Moreover, people change their minds all the time. I was gung ho about law before doing it every damn day for 15 hours a day. I guess the reality set in once I was 1/2 way done with law school and realized that its not over after year 3. There's the bar and then the real full blown assfuking. Hence, I want to get the hell out. I'd rather do something else for 100k or so a year. It's not so much about the money as it is about the type and amount of work they have you do for the relatively meager compensation. I'd be willing to go through law purgatory if they paid me triple the amount. 

Hence, I would rather do something else for 60 or so hours/week. I guess to answer your question: Before entering Law School, I had some experience with law but did not fully grasp what it was about until doing it. Trust me when I say this...I am by no means the only one.

fukwad · Answer

I'm sick of UCLA that's why. I've had enough of Los Angeles. I want to get out of L.A. I'll probably apply to Anderson, yet I'd rather be somewhere else because of the location. 

But I'm starting to doubt my prospects after reading everyone's replies. I'll probably take the GMAT, and just take a shot. I have some work experience just nothing I would call "professional." Thanks for all the help though.

gmatmba · Answer

If you ace the gmat, taking extra classes to boost your chances wont really do any extra. your gmat would show that you would be able to handle academic rigor. i suggest you buy "How to get into Top business schools" by richard montauk and read it. that will give you a better idea of where you need to focus to get into a top school.

tkkoh · Answer

How many applicants with JD & MD applied to Stanford? If there were only 1 each, the implication is different.

tkkoh · Answer

fukwad - I think what would hurt your application if you apply now is your lack of experience. So go and slog it out for the next 2 years.

I think it is a good idea that you take your GMAT now, since the scores are valid for 5 years. Once you are going to slog 70 hr/wk, then it would be more difficult for you to prepare for the test.

dukes · Answer

Here's something else to think about. Getting an MBA doesn't open that many more doors if you already have a JD. As an MBA you get access to all the formal recruiting avenues and some firms look specifically for MBAs, but if you're willing to network and hit the pavement a little bit you have a decent shot of landing a desirable job in the private sector. Its not like law where you absolutely need a JD to get into the field.

Is 99% GMAT enough for Top 3?

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