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What should happen with Scoretop users

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riverripper
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Personally I feel all VIPs' scores should be canceled. However, the only people who should be banned from retaking are those that GMAC can prove used or posted live questions. All other VIPs should be given the opportunity to retake the test whenever they feel prepared...now what the schools do is up to them and probably should go to the honor boards at the various schools to leave it up to the students.
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riverripper
Personally I feel all VIPs' scores should be canceled. However, the only people who should be banned from retaking are those that GMAC can prove used or posted live questions. All other VIPs should be given the opportunity to retake the test whenever they feel prepared...now what the schools do is up to them and probably should go to the honor boards at the various schools to leave it up to the students.

I think you are rushing to judgment. There is absolutely no reason to punish everyone at the cost of those who are truly innocent of any wrongdoing. There are indications now that VIP memberships after some point in 2006/2007 had no access to "live" questions. Certainly, you wouldn't want to knowingly cancel scores of test-takers that definitely had no intentions of cheating nor access to "live" questions?
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jasonc
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yellowjacket
I don't think everyone's scores should be cancelled. They should only cancel the cases where cheating can be verified. From what I've read in the other discussion, I'm sure there will be some people who unknowngly signed up for the vip section of scoretop.

Think about, when you are preparing for the GMAT and you find a resource which promises you some additional questions for $30, there are many people who would take it, since it's just like buying another book. If I have understood the other thread so far (and I could be wrong about this), not every question in the vip section was a actual GMAT question.

As for cancelling everyone's scores and forcing retakes, people would have to study for the GMAT again and even then, there is no guarantee of getting the same score. We all know that no matter how much you've studied, it's not necessary that you will be able to get at least the same score.

Accorinding to me, individuals for whom GMAC can find definite proof of cheating need to dealt with severely - be banned from taking the GMAT.

For me the bigger issue is people who have already graduated. Yes, they cheated on the GMAT to secure admission, but they passed the classes, finished projects etc. (I would hope without cheating) and completed all requirements to graduate.

So, while the adcom was misled into admitting them, was the school was still correct in awarding them degrees?

Of course the schools weren't correct in awarding them degrees :p
The whole point of the ethical dilemma essay/interview questions is to weed out people like these :)

We don't need more corrupt C-level executives masterminding/cheating shareholders out of their money. I think we've all seen plenty in the past decade and a half.
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trader1
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Personally I feel all VIPs' scores should be canceled. However, the only people who should be banned from retaking are those that GMAC can prove used or posted live questions. All other VIPs should be given the opportunity to retake the test whenever they feel prepared...now what the schools do is up to them and probably should go to the honor boards at the various schools to leave it up to the students.

I think you are rushing to judgment. There is absolutely no reason to punish everyone at the cost of those who are truly innocent of any wrongdoing. There are indications now that VIP memberships after some point in 2006/2007 had no access to "live" questions. Certainly, you wouldn't want to knowingly cancel scores of test-takers that definitely had no intentions of cheating nor access to "live" questions?


How do you "definitely" know what their intentions were? Just because there were supposedly no "live" questions (that's not even proven yet is it?) does not mean that they didn't pay $30 in the hopes of gaining access to something under the radar. I wish people would stop playing dumb...the verbage used, or lack thereof, was used as nothing more than CYA in case you find yourself sitting in front of a judge after the feds bust down your door, confiscate your hard drive, and have your ass dragged to court.
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VictoryMBA

How do you "definitely" know what their intentions were? Just because there were supposedly no "live" questions (that's not even proven yet is it?) does not mean that they didn't pay $30 in the hopes of gaining access to something under the radar. I wish people would stop playing dumb...the verbage used, or lack thereof, was used as nothing more than CYA in case you find yourself sitting in front of a judge after the feds bust down your door, confiscate your hard drive, and have your ass dragged to court.

:-) What if they really didn't? People intelligent enough to think of going for MBA would not use their credit cards (only way to trace them) or bank accounts to make payment, if they want something under the radar.

In general, internationals use someone else's credit cards to pay for these things. Not only internationals, some in U.S. also (who intended to get stuff under the radar) may have used someone else's credit cards. Are you suggesting punish only those who actually used their own credit cards or accounts (perhaps not realising they are doing something unethical) beacuse they are the only ones can be traced back?

Doing this will only set the example for future that one shouldn't be caught.
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I picked "cancel all 6,000 scores, ban verified cheaters but allow others to retake"

To me, there are two types of people who are associated with this scandal:
1. Those who definitely gained from the site.
2. Those who didn't really get any verified advantage.

I think everyone who registered as a VIP on that site deserves some punishment just as a lesson in carefulness. I remember joining GMATClub and being reassured by posts that said "DO NOT POST REAL QUESTIONS HERE". But those who didn't know at least deserve a second chance.

Those who DID know deserve zero tolerance - it's a pretty well-publicized rule. We all worked hard for our scores, and I can't stand to tolerate those who tried to "take the easy way out".
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I say cancel those you can verify either said they saw questions they knew the answer to, or those that contributed to the fraud by posting questions from their own tests.
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cpgmba
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I feel they should only cancel scores if cheating can be verrified. It just doesn't seem fair otherwise.
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what exactly does 'verified' mean? that they saw a question on the test that had previously been posted to the boards? that they actually looked at the question on the boards and then got the question on the test? that they were actually the people who paid on the credit card? that's a major question mark: how can one 'verify' that the people cheated?

I think the more important question is not the actual act of cheating, but the intention to cheat. we aren't looking to see whether someone got actual benefit from seeing the questions, but rather whether they intended to get benefit from it. if this were a murder case, the question of intent would change the verdict markedly. but even manslaughter would come with punitive measures.

now, if, as GMAC claims, the availability of live questions was clear and apparent on the website, then we can all assume that the people who paid money intended to get some benefit from it. they should be canceled. in my opinion, though, banning for life is simply too harsh. reformation is possible; the test should be reallowed after a couple of years.
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nanodearokane

we aren't looking to see whether someone got actual benefit from seeing the questions, but rather whether they intended to get benefit from it.

Bingo. I picked "Cancel all 6000 scores". For cases where cheating can be proved beyond doubt: ban 'em for life. For the others: allow a re-take.
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heated debate here. :)

I'd say cancel and ban all who posted and/or accessed the live questions in the VIP section.

I don't know enough about "why" people signed up for the VIP section to be comfortable with cancelling all scores of everyone who had membership to that area. Some people could simply sign up just to get more practice questions, if they didn't hear about the JJs. Of course, if somehow *everyone* knew that being a VIP is the way to access the JJs, then my vote would change to "cancel all 6000 tests and ban only the verified villains".
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kidderek
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from what i know about the situation, i don't think the scores should be cancelled unless they prove that someone received a competitive advantage. Even still, they should be allowed a retake. I have seen other sites that promised "real" GMAT questions...this guy just happened to actually them.

Gonna have to disagree lanter1. I don't think they need to prove there existed a competitve advantage. There are some people who, could have seen the exact same questions, all 78, and still get no edge. However, their intent to cheat coupled with their actions means that they should not only be expelled from school, but also be banned from re-taking.

I haven't pored through the materials as rhyme has, but for the people who knew what they were getting into, they need to be expelled and banned. How to go about proving? I don't know, maybe rhyme has a better answer.

The tough part is going to be the gray area, where people signed up, paid, but did so unknowingly (so they claim).

How popular a site was scoretop? I've never heard of it until recently, so I naturally assume that people went to that site through referrals. And referrals came from people who had successfully used the "live" questions.

I will agree that if they knew for a fact that these were legitimate questions and knew how shady the site was then their scores should be cancelled. I know a lot of us busted our tails to get our scores and cheating should not be tolerated. My only concern is how to prove what everyone knew or did not know.
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Just using the model penal code, there needs to exist several elements, the primary two of which are

1) mens rea - the mental culpability to commit the act

2) actus reus - the act

So GMAC needs to prove that the people signed up wanting to see "live" questions and of course, the signing up and paying should be enough to fulfill the actus reus portion of the cheating.
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Based on what I've read so far, I think that is the issue. Over the last 2-3 years, the site never explicitly said that it had "live" questions. While I'm sure some of the VIP members went on the website because they knew through others that the site had live questions, there would've also been some other people who went there thinking of it as a source of extra questions.

Since the site didn't clearly say it had "live" questions, I dont think GMAC can prove people signed up wanting to see "live" questions.

kidderek
Just using the model penal code, there needs to exist several elements, the primary two of which are

1) mens rea - the mental culpability to commit the act

2) actus reus - the act

So GMAC needs to prove that the people signed up wanting to see "live" questions and of course, the signing up and paying should be enough to fulfill the actus reus portion of the cheating.
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agree with you yellow jacket..

Id like to break this survey into two parts

Circa 2006 - JJ's were posted- and sold as live questions.. Students knew what theyre buying.. Guaranteed cheating .. Cancel their scores, report it to univs , let univs decide best course of action.

Post 2006- VIP was not sold as live questions. many unaware regarding the official source. Scoretop sold these as questions designed by them ..It does not constitue any fraud by students who visited the site and paid for VIP, unless and until they post their live questions on the forum, and shared them with others.. That would be illegitemate, on any site .. VIP membership has nothing to do with that.. ban such students..

It would be difficult to implicate many others, who may have unintentially gained from Scoretop VIP membership...
I personally beleive that if u are on a site for 30 days, and practice 10-15 questions everyday, it will be difficult to remember all answers unless and until u take an effort to memorize the answers, or limit urself to practising just the VIP questions. Doubt many would just do that... Only those students will do this who know these are live questions.. These ppl can be found, based on their exam debriefs claiming they saw some questions from practice and then posted these questions or the questions they encountered.. Dont think they will constitute the majority of the VIP members.

Those who took their GMAT months after their scoretop membership expired, stand to gain nothing . They should not be implicated or dragged into this scandal, because every month the question pool changes, and if one joins with an intention to cheat he would join nearest to his exam date to gain from the questions.
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I am one of the people who accesses VIP section for a month, with no knowledge or intent of getting real question. I first registered for GMAT in 2005 but when found tough, studies for 2 years and registered on many GMT related websites in last 2 months before the exam.

For that matter, I did all the GMATCLUB challenges (paid more than I did for scoretop VIP), all the MGMAT exams (paid for those too), GMAC paper tests (paid for those), KAPLAN online tests, Princeton tests and 2 practice exams from GMAC, bought through amazon (I have reciepts) official OG's, supplementary OG's for quant and verbal, all MGMAT books, all manhattan review books, 3 KAPLAN books , 2 PRINCETON books, 1 veritas book and couple more maths and english books.

Now, what if someone has mentioned somewhere on the web that one of these things have real questions or that s/he found questions from these in exam? Do I hold myself accountable and let someone call me a cheat?

Or did I really get any additional benefit from SCORETOP? My score for challenges and for MGMAT was better than my real score.

Friends, think very hard and long before calling someone "Cheat", specially generalising that everyone had an intent to cheat. I did not and I am sure many others did not intend to cheat too. I am in United States. If a website has been in operation from withing United States for 5 years, and I could legally make the payment through my bank, I would rather call myself a victim and not "cheat".

For those of you demanding re-examination, let me tell you, I was in 99 percentile and I can score better than my current score in re-exam. But let me tell you, I would not just appear for re-exam. It will be like accepting that I was wrongly benefitted. All you guys that called all "VIP members" cheat, are you going to write a public apology if I take the re-exam at your given time and place and score higer than I have already? Will you compensate me for general public defamation of character of many people without proof? What if tomorrow your IP addresses are being tracked for calling people cheats or this website is blamed for being a forum where someone wrote that all the Indians and Chinese scores should be cancelled? Will we all be racist??
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I think we all take a risk when we spend money on a website that promises questions for GMAT prep. Each person is responsible for the decisions he/she makes. If that decision is to not check out a website thoroughly enough, then the consequences of that action can be severe. I have no sympathy for people that signed up for the VIP section of ScoreTop, even if they were innocently trying to find more prep material. It appears as though it would have taken someone actively trying to avoid learning what the JJ's were and that ScoreTop's VIP contained live GMAT questions.

Why would you pay for 30 days access to something? Is it just a coincidence that GMAC has a new pool of questions every 30 days? Hmmm....that doesn't seem like a mere coincidence to me. When ScoreTop starts getting questions from the new pool of GMAC questions the website wanted another $30. Other than private tutors, are there other websites that charge a monthly fee like that?
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