Last visit was: 19 Nov 2025, 10:35 It is currently 19 Nov 2025, 10:35
Home
GMAT
Messages
Tests
Schools
Events
Rewards
Chat
My Profile
Close
GMAT Club Daily Prep
Thank you for using the timer - this advanced tool can estimate your performance and suggest more practice questions. We have subscribed you to Daily Prep Questions via email.

Customized
for You

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History

Track
Your Progress

every week, we’ll send you an estimated GMAT score based on your performance

Practice
Pays

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History
Not interested in getting valuable practice questions and articles delivered to your email? No problem, unsubscribe here.
Go to My Error Log Learn more
Close
Request Expert Reply
Confirm Cancel
User avatar
TGC
User avatar
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Last visit: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 579
Own Kudos:
3,560
 [1]
Given Kudos: 322
Concentration: General Management, General Management
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 1: 630 Q47 V29
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
GPA: 3.7
WE:Information Technology (Finance: Investment Banking)
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
Posts: 579
Kudos: 3,560
 [1]
Tim had had several passenger cars 05 May 2013, 04:37
Kudos
Add Kudos
1
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Tim had had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.

Why there is a need of "had had" (Past Perfect) when the sentence uses "Before".

Plz Advice !!

Rgds,
TGC

Archived Topic
Hi there,
This topic has been closed and archived due to inactivity or violation of community quality standards. No more replies are possible here.
Where to now? Join ongoing discussions on thousands of quality questions in our Verbal Questions Forum
Still interested in this question? Check out the "Best Topics" block below for a better discussion on this exact question, as well as several more related questions.
Thank you for understanding, and happy exploring!
User avatar
TGC
User avatar
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Last visit: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 579
Own Kudos:
3,560
Given Kudos: 322
Concentration: General Management, General Management
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 1: 630 Q47 V29
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
GPA: 3.7
WE:Information Technology (Finance: Investment Banking)
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
Posts: 579
Kudos: 3,560
Tim had had several passenger cars 09 May 2013, 06:08
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Anyone??????????
User avatar
KyleWiddison
User avatar
Manhattan Prep Instructor
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Last visit: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 781
Own Kudos:
2,684
Given Kudos: 5
Expert
Expert reply
Posts: 781
Kudos: 2,684
Tim had had several passenger cars 11 May 2013, 22:47
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
First of all, what is the source of this sentence? Any additonal would be helpful.

KW
User avatar
TGC
User avatar
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Last visit: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 579
Own Kudos:
3,560
Given Kudos: 322
Concentration: General Management, General Management
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 1: 630 Q47 V29
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
GPA: 3.7
WE:Information Technology (Finance: Investment Banking)
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
Posts: 579
Kudos: 3,560
Tim had had several passenger cars 12 May 2013, 00:27
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
KyleWiddison
First of all, what is the source of this sentence? Any additonal would be helpful.

KW
Show more


Sir,

Aristotle SC -Grail (2011)

Rgds,
TGC
User avatar
doe007
User avatar
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Last visit: 03 May 2015
Posts: 232
Own Kudos:
858
Given Kudos: 70
Posts: 232
Kudos: 858
Tim had had several passenger cars 12 May 2013, 02:22
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Correct form of the sentence would be: Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.

When there are two past events, we can use following two strategies to indicate the order of events:
1) use of past perfect to indicate earlier event and simple past to indicate later event
2) use of the relational word (e.g., before, after, earlier, later, etc.)

Here "had had + before" has created redundancy.
User avatar
MacFauz
User avatar
Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Last visit: 19 Mar 2022
Posts: 996
Own Kudos:
3,360
Given Kudos: 116
Location: India
Concentration: Strategy
Schools: Ross '16 (D) McCombs '16 (D) Kenan-Flagler '16 (WA) Olin '16 (M$) Tepper '16 (D)
GMAT 1: 740 Q49 V42
GPA: 3.8
WE:Engineering (Energy)
Schools: Ross '16 (D) McCombs '16 (D) Kenan-Flagler '16 (WA) Olin '16 (M$) Tepper '16 (D)
GMAT 1: 740 Q49 V42
Posts: 996
Kudos: 3,360
Tim had had several passenger cars 12 May 2013, 06:42
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Sentence correction never really was my strong point but still this one quite stumped me.. Grammatically 'had had' seems redundant but when we say it, because 'decided' is in the past tense, 'had had' sounds better...
User avatar
doe007
User avatar
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Last visit: 03 May 2015
Posts: 232
Own Kudos:
858
Given Kudos: 70
Posts: 232
Kudos: 858
Tim had had several passenger cars 12 May 2013, 07:24
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
There are correct usages of had had as follows.
They had had enough savings and they paid for the mortgage without any penalty.
If I had had another five minutes, I would have finished the examination paper.

Only "had had + before/after/earlier/later" creates redundancy.
User avatar
KyleWiddison
User avatar
Manhattan Prep Instructor
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Last visit: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 781
Own Kudos:
2,684
 [4]
Given Kudos: 5
Expert
Expert reply
Posts: 781
Kudos: 2,684
 [4]
Tim had had several passenger cars 13 May 2013, 21:06
3
Kudos
Add Kudos
1
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Well this is a fun one :)

The past perfect is used to show the EARLIER of two past events. This one is a bit tricky because the use of the word 'before', which essentially provides the same function as the past perfect.

It appears that the 'had had' may be overkill with the inclusion of 'before', but let's look closely at the difference in meaning between one and two 'hads':

1) Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.
2) Tim had had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.

In the first sentence, we get the sense that at the time Tim bought his sports car he was in possession of several passenger cars. In the second sentence, we have a slightly different impression - Tim had owned several passenger cars (but was done owning them) by the time he bought the sports car.

So, even with 'before' in the sentence, we can see that the past perfect is helpful to show that the prior action was over by the time the later action takes place.

KW
User avatar
TGC
User avatar
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Last visit: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 579
Own Kudos:
3,560
Given Kudos: 322
Concentration: General Management, General Management
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 1: 630 Q47 V29
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
GPA: 3.7
WE:Information Technology (Finance: Investment Banking)
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
Posts: 579
Kudos: 3,560
Tim had had several passenger cars 13 May 2013, 21:15
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
KyleWiddison
Well this is a fun one :)

The past perfect is used to show the EARLIER of two past events. This one is a bit tricky because the use of the word 'before', which essentially provides the same function as the past perfect.

It appears that the 'had had' may be overkill with the inclusion of 'before', but let's look closely at the difference in meaning between one and two 'hads':

1) Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.
2) Tim had had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.

In the first sentence, we get the sense that at the time Tim bought his sports car he was in possession of several passenger cars. In the second sentence, we have a slightly different impression - Tim had owned several passenger cars (but was done owning them) by the time he bought the sports car.

So, even with 'before' in the sentence, we can see that the past perfect is helpful to show that the prior action was over by the time the later action takes place.

KW
Show more

In the first sentence, we get the sense that at the time Tim bought his sports car he was in possession of several passenger cars. In the second sentence, we have a slightly different impression - Tim had owned several passenger cars (but was done owning them) by the time he bought the sports car.

Sir,

In the above reasoning don't you think you are confusing BEFORE with WHILE.Because your reasoning of sentence -1 is meaningful with use of WHILE and not BEFORE.

Plz Advice

Rgds,
TGC
User avatar
doe007
User avatar
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Last visit: 03 May 2015
Posts: 232
Own Kudos:
858
Given Kudos: 70
Posts: 232
Kudos: 858
Tim had had several passenger cars 13 May 2013, 21:54
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
KyleWiddison
Well this is a fun one :)

The past perfect is used to show the EARLIER of two past events. This one is a bit tricky because the use of the word 'before', which essentially provides the same function as the past perfect.

It appears that the 'had had' may be overkill with the inclusion of 'before', but let's look closely at the difference in meaning between one and two 'hads':

1) Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.
2) Tim had had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.

In the first sentence, we get the sense that at the time Tim bought his sports car he was in possession of several passenger cars. In the second sentence, we have a slightly different impression - Tim had owned several passenger cars (but was done owning them) by the time he bought the sports car.

So, even with 'before' in the sentence, we can see that the past perfect is helpful to show that the prior action was over by the time the later action takes place.

KW
Show more
Hi Kyle, Thank you for your valuable comments.

Please refer to the following 2 reconstructions the first sentence -- here I replaced "had" with "in possession with":

a) Tim was in possession of several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car. This sentence makes clear that the possession was before the decision was made. This sentence would mean the same as the following two sentences.
-- i) Tim had had several passenger cars while he decided to buy a sports car.
-- ii) Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.

b) Tim was in possession of several passenger cars while he decided to buy a sports car. This sentence does not make clear that the possession was before the decision was made.

I am not sure if there is anything wrong in my understanding.
User avatar
KyleWiddison
User avatar
Manhattan Prep Instructor
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Last visit: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 781
Own Kudos:
2,684
 [3]
Given Kudos: 5
Expert
Expert reply
Posts: 781
Kudos: 2,684
 [3]
Tim had had several passenger cars 18 May 2013, 08:35
2
Kudos
Add Kudos
1
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
targetgmatchotu


1) Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.
2) Tim had had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.


In the first sentence, we get the sense that at the time Tim bought his sports car he was in possession of several passenger cars. In the second sentence, we have a slightly different impression - Tim had owned several passenger cars (but was done owning them) by the time he bought the sports car.

Sir,

In the above reasoning don't you think you are confusing BEFORE with WHILE.Because your reasoning of sentence -1 is meaningful with use of WHILE and not BEFORE.

Plz Advice

Rgds,
TGC
Show more

I like your thought about changing the word BEFORE, but since we are dealing with a transaction we should probably contrast BEFORE with WHEN instead of WHILE (WHILE would be more appropriate for something with a longer duration. You are correct that if we change BEFORE to WHEN the sentence becomes clear in that Tim was in possession of the cars at the time he purchased the sports car. So, if the sentence was using WHEN in combination with a single 'had' there would be no confusion around the meaning. When we use the word BEFORE, the meaning becomes somewhat ambiguous because we can interpret the sentence to mean that he was in possession of the passenger cars when he bought the sports car or he might have gotten rid of them already. The way to eliminate the ambiguity completely with the word BEFORE is to use 'had had'.

Here is another example to illustrate how 'had had' clarifies meaning with the word BEFORE:
I had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered.
[We might reasonably assume that I had eaten the two hot dogs before I got my fries, but we could also interpret this statement to mean that I had two hot dogs on my plate and I was waiting for the fries before eating anything.]
I had had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered.
[Here the meaning is clear. I was done with my hot dogs before the fries showed up (and I probably wasn't too happy)]

KW
User avatar
TGC
User avatar
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Last visit: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 579
Own Kudos:
3,560
Given Kudos: 322
Concentration: General Management, General Management
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 1: 630 Q47 V29
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
GPA: 3.7
WE:Information Technology (Finance: Investment Banking)
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
Posts: 579
Kudos: 3,560
Tim had had several passenger cars 18 May 2013, 10:47
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
KyleWiddison
targetgmatchotu


1) Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.
2) Tim had had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.


In the first sentence, we get the sense that at the time Tim bought his sports car he was in possession of several passenger cars. In the second sentence, we have a slightly different impression - Tim had owned several passenger cars (but was done owning them) by the time he bought the sports car.

Sir,

In the above reasoning don't you think you are confusing BEFORE with WHILE.Because your reasoning of sentence -1 is meaningful with use of WHILE and not BEFORE.

Plz Advice

Rgds,
TGC

I like your thought about changing the word BEFORE, but since we are dealing with a transaction we should probably contrast BEFORE with WHEN instead of WHILE (WHILE would be more appropriate for something with a longer duration. You are correct that if we change BEFORE to WHEN the sentence becomes clear in that Tim was in possession of the cars at the time he purchased the sports car. So, if the sentence was using WHEN in combination with a single 'had' there would be no confusion around the meaning. When we use the word BEFORE, the meaning becomes somewhat ambiguous because we can interpret the sentence to mean that he was in possession of the passenger cars when he bought the sports car or he might have gotten rid of them already. The way to eliminate the ambiguity completely with the word BEFORE is to use 'had had'.

Here is another example to illustrate how 'had had' clarifies meaning with the word BEFORE:
I had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered.
[We might reasonably assume that I had eaten the two hot dogs before I got my fries, but we could also interpret this statement to mean that I had two hot dogs on my plate and I was waiting for the fries before eating anything.]
I had had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered.
[Here the meaning is clear. I was done with my hot dogs before the fries showed up (and I probably wasn't too happy)]

KW
Show more

I agree with your line of thought.However, in the example that you gave "I had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered",in my high opinion there should be no ambiguity in understanding this sentence.

Implicitly, sentence "I had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered" means that I had 2 HD before fries arrived no matter they exist on my plate or stomach that is out of scope.But the whole idea of using perfect tense is to make the time sequence clear enough.Nonetheless, here BEFORE creates a perfect time sequence so we have to AVOID perfect tenses when the simple tenses would do.

What is your opinion Sir?

Rgds,
TGC !!
User avatar
TGC
User avatar
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Last visit: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 579
Own Kudos:
3,560
 [2]
Given Kudos: 322
Concentration: General Management, General Management
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 1: 630 Q47 V29
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
GPA: 3.7
WE:Information Technology (Finance: Investment Banking)
Schools: ISB '16 NUS '17 NTU '17 XLRI SMU '17 IIM Lucknow IPMX'16 (A)
GMAT 2: 680 Q50 V32
Posts: 579
Kudos: 3,560
 [2]
Tim had had several passenger cars 19 May 2013, 05:27
2
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
OG-11 CR85:

An unusually severe winter occurred in Europe after the continent was blanketed by a blue haze resulting from
the eruption of the Laki Volcano in the Europeans republic of Iceland in the summer of 1984.

The above is taken from CR of OG-11.

We can observe the usage of "AFTER" here .Simple tenses are sufficient in the above example.

Rgds,
TGC !!
User avatar
KyleWiddison
User avatar
Manhattan Prep Instructor
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Last visit: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 781
Own Kudos:
2,684
Given Kudos: 5
Expert
Expert reply
Posts: 781
Kudos: 2,684
Tim had had several passenger cars 24 May 2013, 06:21
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
doe007

Hi Kyle, Thank you for your valuable comments.

Please refer to the following 2 reconstructions the first sentence -- here I replaced "had" with "in possession with":

a) Tim was in possession of several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car. This sentence makes clear that the possession was before the decision was made. This sentence would mean the same as the following two sentences.
-- i) Tim had had several passenger cars while he decided to buy a sports car.
-- ii) Tim had several passenger cars before he decided to buy a sports car.

b) Tim was in possession of several passenger cars while he decided to buy a sports car. This sentence does not make clear that the possession was before the decision was made.

I am not sure if there is anything wrong in my understanding.
Show more

Strange...I know I replied to this post already, but for some reason my reply got stuck somewhere in cyberspace...

Here is my feedback regarding your sentences above:

a) This sentence does make clear that the possession was before the decision. It also implies that he still had the cars at the time of the decision.
i) This construction doesn't make sense. Because past perfect is used to refer to an earlier completed action, you can't use 'had had' (happened previously) in combination with 'while' (happening at the same time).
ii) This sentence differs in meaning from a) because a) implies that Tim still has the cars whereas this sentence could be interpreted to mean that Tim didn't have the cars anymore.
b) This one is a bit awkward. The sentence is probably better written with "when" instead of "while". If you used "when" the meaning would be pretty similar to sentence a).

The main lesson with Past Perfect is that it is used correctly when you need to create a time relationship between two past events.

KW
User avatar
KyleWiddison
User avatar
Manhattan Prep Instructor
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Last visit: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 781
Own Kudos:
2,684
Given Kudos: 5
Expert
Expert reply
Posts: 781
Kudos: 2,684
Tim had had several passenger cars 24 May 2013, 06:31
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
targetgmatchotu


I agree with your line of thought.However, in the example that you gave "I had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered",in my high opinion there should be no ambiguity in understanding this sentence.

Implicitly, sentence "I had two hot dogs before my fries were delivered" means that I had 2 HD before fries arrived no matter they exist on my plate or stomach that is out of scope.But the whole idea of using perfect tense is to make the time sequence clear enough.Nonetheless, here BEFORE creates a perfect time sequence so we have to AVOID perfect tenses when the simple tenses would do.

What is your opinion Sir?

Rgds,
TGC !!
Show more

TGC - Great catch! I got a bit careless with my word choice in that first sentence. To really create ambiguity in that sentence, I should have used 'when' just like we did in the earlier posts with Tim's cars.

I had two hot dogs when my fries were delivered. Here there is definite ambiguity in meaning. Did I just have the hot dogs in my possession or did I eat two hot dogs before I got my fries?

The takeaway here is that the 'time reference' words (before, when, while, at the same time) are every bit as important as tenses in establishing time relationships in a sentence.

KW
User avatar
KyleWiddison
User avatar
Manhattan Prep Instructor
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
Last visit: 06 Jul 2016
Posts: 781
Own Kudos:
2,684
 [1]
Given Kudos: 5
Expert
Expert reply
Posts: 781
Kudos: 2,684
 [1]
Tim had had several passenger cars 24 May 2013, 07:33
1
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
targetgmatchotu
OG-11 CR85:

An unusually severe winter occurred in Europe after the continent was blanketed by a blue haze resulting from
the eruption of the Laki Volcano in the Europeans republic of Iceland in the summer of 1984.

The above is taken from CR of OG-11.

We can observe the usage of "AFTER" here .Simple tenses are sufficient in the above example.

Rgds,
TGC !!
Show more

TGC - I like the example and it highlights a key point regarding Past Perfect (and other complex tenses). Only use complex tenses if there is a definite need to do so. So, prefer the simple tenses but recognize where the GMAT uses the perfect tenses in correct answers - here are some examples from the Verbal Supplement: #37 (Some buildings that...) and #39 (A recent study...).

KW

KW
User avatar
vivekdhawan
User avatar
Joined: 13 Mar 2012
Last visit: 18 Dec 2014
Posts: 11
Own Kudos:
41
 [2]
Given Kudos: 9
GMAT 1: 700 Q50 V34
GMAT 1: 700 Q50 V34
Posts: 11
Kudos: 41
 [2]
Tim had had several passenger cars 24 Jul 2013, 11:44
2
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
TIM HAD HAD SEVERAL PASSENGER CARS BEFORE HE DECIDED TO BUY A SPORTS CAR.

according to aristotle sc grail .., the sentence represents past perfect for

TIM HAS SEVERAL PASSENGER CARS.

HOWEVER THE BOOK SAYS THE ABOVE SENTENCE IS IN SIMPLE PRESENT AND NOT PRESENT PERFECT.

kindly advise if it holds true. I feel "tim has several passenger cars" has stands for owns.

thus:

SIMPLE PRESENT : tim has several passenger cars is same as tim owns several passenger cars.

PRESENT PERFECT: TIM HAS HAD SEVERAL PASSENGER CARS , is same as TIM HAS OWNED SEVERAL PASSENGER CARS.

PAST PERFECT : TIM HAD HAD SEVERAL PC BEFORE HE DECIDED TO BUY SC. is same as TIM HAD OWNED SEVERAL PASSENGER CARS BEFORE HE DECIDED TO BUY A SC.



NOTE : the presence of before does not suffice ommission of past perfect here.


kindly guide if am thinking on the right track.

Archived Topic
Hi there,
This topic has been closed and archived due to inactivity or violation of community quality standards. No more replies are possible here.
Where to now? Join ongoing discussions on thousands of quality questions in our Verbal Questions Forum
Still interested in this question? Check out the "Best Topics" block above for a better discussion on this exact question, as well as several more related questions.
Thank you for understanding, and happy exploring!
Moderators:
miag
189 posts
u1983
Current Student
710 posts
MikeScarn
Current Student
275 posts