Suggestions for a 5th school

Question

So far I have found 4 MBA programs that I really like but I want to apply to 5 (its going to be a competitive year so I want to get in as many apps as possible). I don't want to go through the whole background deal again but basically all the consultants have told me I'm "competitive" for the 5-15 type schools. Obviously the higher ones I'll be stretching a bit more and the 10-15 will be a bit safer, but no sure thing. I have a 3.2 gpa from a decent undergrad, a 740 GMAT, finance work experience at a small company, solid ECs, solid goals and some good stories on leadership, impact, etc.

Here's what I've been looking for in a school: I want to get into investment management after MBA so they have to be relatively strong in that area in terms of recruiting primarily, and course/club offerings secondarily. I also want a school with a strong core/general management rep that can complement the fact that I already am studying for the CFA, have 4 years in finance, and have a finance undergrad. So a school like Chicago that only has one core class does not interest me. My preference is for a school with a more tight knit community although that's not an absolute requirement. In some cases, getting to live in NYC (Columbia) is more valuable to me. Plus, it seems to be pretty tight knit as far as city schools go. I'm also limiting myself to schools that are generally Top 15.

Here are the schools I have:
Columbia ED. My top choice. It is absolutely amazing at placing into IM (12+% which is the highest of any MBA program). The Value Investing Program is amazing, they have a strong core program and overall GM rep to complement my finance background and I love NYC.
Cornell. Great tight knit community. Super friendly students. Just got a great feel from the place when I visited. They also have very robust investment management offerings including an asset management immersion, the largest student run fund, and a live trading floor. Very strong IM placement.
Tuck. I love the tight knit community there, it seems like a great place to spend 2 years. Their GM focus will complement my backgound. Surprisingly they send 8% into IM (among the highest of the top schools), this is probably due to their location right near Boston.
Yale. Great core program. Perfect complement to my background. Some of the top finance professors out there such as Ibottsen, Fabozzi, etc. They also send a very high percentage into IM (7%). I also love the tight knit community here.

After this I have really struggled to add a fifth. I've considered Wharton, Duke and Kellogg among others. With Duke and Kellogg I love the atmosphere and community but am concerned about the IM placement. With Wharton I think its an amazing school but since I would choose Columbia over Wharton, and Columbia is supposedly a bit easier to get into (ED) it seems like applying to Wharton might be a waste of my time. I'm also weighing whether I should add another M7 type school (Wharton, Kellogg) or whether I should add a safer school (Duke, etc). I am 100% committed to going to school next year so I really want to ensure that I get in somewhere. That makes me wonder if I might be safer adding another 10-15 type school. Or should I just go for it and add a Wharton type school? Can anybody help me out here? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Also, are there any schools that might be a good fit that I'm forgetting about?

Thanks

agold · Answer

I would add Wharton if I was in your shoes, but if you don't feel comfortable doing that - what about NYU Stern?

riverripper · Answer

Basically any M7 is going to have better opportunities in all traditional MBA careers (such as IM) than a school in the 10-20 range. Your GMAT is very good, your GPA is not low enough to cause a concern especially if its from a good school and/or challenging major. You never really know how applications play out, so I am of the opinion of go all out...especially in R1. I would say forget Wharton...yes obviously its a great school and a good fit for what you want to do but the competition is going to be fierce there next year especially for applicants from the finance world. A lot of very strong applicants on here got dinged there this year so I think its going to be a very tough hill to climb. Just trying to be realistic since applying is time intensive, stressful, and expensive. As long as you can handle the "what if?" I would say your chances are much much better at other top schools. Wharton will probably be in the 10% range for admits next year.

I would say consider going for Chicago GSB or Kellogg in R1. Chicago places over 10% in IM so its obviously strong in that field. Kellogg only has 4% but remember that far fewer are going after those types of those jobs. Honestly, I think your chances at Kellogg are probably going to be better. It attracts lots of consultants but not as many finance folks and people who want to head to finance...so you will be in a smaller applicant pool. I would say apply in R1, if you do go with Kellogg you have the possibility of finding out one way or the other pretty early so it gives you a chance to decide on your R2 strategy. I would say with Columbia ED, its possible to do 6 schools. I would suggest looking at someplace like Ross which has a strong reputation, pretty good in the finance world and your chances should be stronger there than your other schools (besides maybe Cornell).

6 schools may seem like a lot but with an ED application and spacing them out right its definitely possible. Many people here did 3 or 4 in R1 last year. As long as you get on essays quickly. I suggest that you start working on essays for some schools like Tuck which dont change much year to year. If you do go with Kellogg I would get to work on those too since they dont change much either.

togafoot · Answer

or to throw a complete alternative. LBS? May offer you the opportunity to explore a different continent in a region where finance is also very strong.
Average salary of US$124,512
6% in Asset manegement
5% in PE/VC
22% in IB

IHateTheGMAT · Answer

Thanks for the suggestions. It looks like Wharton, Kellogg or Chicago. I agree that Wharton might be too tough this year and my time might be better spent on another app. With Kellogg I'm still concerned about going to a school that only sends 4% into IM. With Chicago, I still don't like the weak core program. Of course all the schools have some things I really like too. Picking a 5th school is tough. I think its going to be either Chicago or Kellogg though. Guess I'll have to think about it for a bit.

kryzak · Answer

I would throw in a vote for Kellogg due to it being *slightly* easier for you to get into because of the lower competition from your demographics.

As for Chicago, before rhyme jumps in to defend it, I'd like to point out that just because it only has one *required* class doesn't mean it only has one *core* class. You still need to take classes from different "areas", it's just you can take as difficult/turbo of a class as you want. So for someone very interested in finance and IM, you can structure your "core" classes to be very finance heavy to give you a leg up on others. So I would seriously consider Chicago and not disregard it because of its uber-flexible "core" structure.

maverick2011 · Answer

river,

Regarding your opinion (which I happen to agree with) of less competition at Kellogg for finance-related jobs, do you think this helps with admissions? That is, does Kellogg actually put weight on an applicant's plans to go into finance? I've heard most schools only care that you have thought out your future career, regardless of what it is, but it seems like Kellogg may place some weight on an applicant's desire to join their finance program.

kwam · Answer

In your position I'd consider:

Chicago, MIT and NYU. At these schools you can go as deep as you want in finance, they are extremely well recognized for that. Your perception of the core at GSB is not totally true, you will have to study GM and Marketing to get your degree.

LBS is also a extremely good option, especially if you want to work in Europe.

For heavy quant positions, Columbia, Chicago, MIT and the MFins at Princeton are some options - no particular order, though I believe that MFins are better for this positions.

cougarblue · Answer

IM is kind of a broad description, what specifically do you want to be doing? Curious, why are you so concerned with management classes if you want to do IM?

I wouldn't just look at placement %s, go take a look at the kinds of IM companies that recruit out of Chicago, for instance. Now compare that with Kellogg, or Yale/Cornell/Tuck for that matter, and I think you'll reach the same conclusion that I did, i.e. for IM jobs, Chicago is first class, up there with Wharton/Columbia/HBS/Stanford. I'd also definitely consider NYU if you'd like to increase the expectation of your portfolio.

As a personal example, I've been doing a lot of soul-searching and have come to the conclusion that I'd like to work in IM, specifically at a value-oriented HF would be my dream job. I'm putting Colmubia/Wharton/Chicago high on the list for those reasons, and am taking Northwestern off of my list. (I'm sorry, I just don't believe you'll get more access to a sweet IM job because there are simply less people gunning for it at a particular school.) By the way, the Value Investing program is difficult to get accepted into, and I've heard rumors that if you mention it in your app, they hold you to a higher standard than a regular Columbia applicant.

IHateTheGMAT · Answer

Specifically, I want to get into buyside equity research. My preference is for value investing, but I won't limit myself to that in recruiting. The type of company I'm looking to work for is a large fund company (such as Fidelity, T Rowe, Putnam, etc).

The reason I am interested in core/GM type courses is because, as I stated earlier, I already have a lot of finance in my background. I studied finance in undergrad at a well regarded undergrad Bschool, I just took level II of the CFA (and hope to have the charter by the time I start school) and I will have 5 years of finance work experience at matriculation. So, while I obviously want to beef up my finance knowlege, and more specifically my investing knowledge, it is also important to me to get a broader management education. I'm sure you're aware that as you move up the ranks in IM you are responsible for managing people (particularly as a portfolio manager), leading, motivating, communicating effectively, etc. These are the type of things that can't be learned through the CFA, they are unique to MBA programs. I think this type of coursework/experience is a great complement to my background. However, like I said, its also important to further build my finance knowlede. Columbia can obviously do that. But Cornell also has a very strong asset management immersion and student run fund. Yale has some top finance people, including Whitman, Fabbozzi and Ibbottsen (probably spelled all of those wrong) and about 50% of their grads go into finance jobs including 7-8% into IM. So, all the schools combine finance strength and core/GM strength and that's what I'm looking for.

As far as recruiting at these schools, don't discount the IM recruiting at Cornell/Yale/Tuck. The following companies hired Cornell MBAs last year: BlackRock, Fidelity Investments, Loomis Sayles, Mellon Asset Management, Putnam Investments, T Rowe Price, Wellington, Deleware Investments. And there are many more, those are just some of the bigger names I picked out. And that's for a class size of only around 250 (of which about 8% go into IM). So, like I said, don't discount the ability of these schools to place students into top IM jobs. I'm trying to think beyond the whole, I want finance so I'll apply to Wharton, Chicago, Columbia and NYU type of thinking. But, of course, I'm considering each of those schools. Columbia is already on my list and I am starting to lean heavily towards adding Chicago. I'm not a fan of NYU. One other factor is that I want to get into school this year so if I only applied to Wharton/Columbia/HBS/Stanford there is a good chance I won't get in anywhere. I'm looking to apply to 2-3 schools in the Top 10 and 2-3 schools in the 10-15 range to increase my odds of going to school somewhere next year. I think Cornell and Yale are the best matches for me in the 10-15 range for the reasosn I've discussed. Does Wharton have better IM placement? Sure. But Cornell/Yale are very solid for IM and they increase my odds of getting in somewhere next year.

Oh and one other thing. I really do prefer that tight knit collaborative type atmosphere, though it is not a dealbreaker. That also helps Cornell/Yale/Tuck sneak onto my list over similar quality schools that don't have as strong of a community. And its the reason I've given Kellogg serious consideration even though it's IM recruiting is not as strong. As of now though it looks like my 5th school will probably be Chicago.

riverripper · Answer

I would say most schools like a diverse class and some schools attract more of certain types of applicants. Its going to be a safe bet that more people with finance careers as a goal and/or coming from finance fields are going to apply to GSB than Kellogg. Where as there are going to be more marketing related applicants to Kellogg than Chicago. Both schools (and all top 10s in general) are going to give you great opportunities in all areas with the exception of PE/HF/VC, which are limited mostly to H/S/W. I also think some schools are harder for people from certain backgrounds. I would say MIT is going to be much harder for engineers than Kellogg or Chicago.

lepium · Answer

So true. I've met several of us engineers who've made it into, for eg, HBS but not MIT. MIT's class size is tiny (300ish) and lots of engineers apply.

L.

djhouse81 · Answer

IHTG,
Have you considered Ross? MAP at Ross sounds unbelievable and a different experience than you are used to, and, just like any top school, you can write your ticket coming out of Ross. With you background you should have a great shot at acceptance, and if you want to do finance when you come out you will be more than fine given your extensive background in finance. Furthermore, you don't seem to mind living in a college town.

Please note that I am making this case for your 5th, I repeat 5th, school. CBS is still number one!

IHateTheGMAT · Answer

Haha. Yes it is!

kidderek · Answer

Gotta make that your sig.

cougarblue · Answer

Is your 4 years finance experience investment related or more corporate finance type stuff? I'm not discounting Cornell/Yale/Tuck for IM recruiting as much as I'm pointing out my opinion of the superior IM opportunities at Chicago as compared to those schools. That isn't to say that you can't get interviews at some great shops from those schools, as you've pointed out some recent successful placements, I just firmly believe that you will have more of those opportunities at Chicago. The difference might be negligible in your mind, and you obviously have other reasons for wanting those schools too (although I think that size of student run investment fund might be irrelevant.) However, I do think you might be overestimating the usefulness of general management MBA classes to the actual activities that involve "leading, motivating, communicating effectively, etc." as a Portfolio Manager. At any rate, hopefully for you this decision won't matter and you can go to Columbia.

djhouse81 · Answer

Nah, I don't want to start a rankings war on here like some other b-school forums.

IHateTheGMAT · Answer

Thanks everyone for all your help and suggestions. Just FYI, I've decided to add Chicago to my list and have settled on the following list of five schools:

Columbia
Chicago
Cornell
Yale
Tuck

kwam · Answer

It's a very strong list, with 4 Ultra-Elites in terms of selectivity and one Elite (Tuck is Ultra-elitist and as Yale has a small class and the University brand, it's hard to get into). Cornell has an amazing program, I just haven't applied there because of location, my wife would kill me.

Regarding CBS, def go for ED if it is your 1st option. And make as many 1st rounds as you can. Finally visit schools if possible, go to Info sessions, sign newsletter, and ask people here about school's particularities, etc.

Good Luck!

riverripper · Answer

Personally I suggest thinking about a 6th school. Judging by your success with Columbia ED and getting interviews you may have an idea of how things are shaping up. I would say having a school picked out and know how you can work essays into another school could really give you a good back up. Next year is going to be tough and like Kwam said you picked schools that are all very challenging. Tuck and Yale are probably as tough if not more difficult to get into (admission rate wise) as Chicago.

Suggestions for a 5th school

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