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13 Aug 2009, 10:18
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Yesterday I received a question from mba12tech asking about the MMM program at Kellogg. He/she had some great questions, the answers of which are probably worth sharing in case anyone else out there has an interest in the program. I think there are probably some myths about the MMM program floating around out there in the ether, so I will first try to hit on some of the big ones.
Myth: Since the MMM is a dual degree program, it will take more than two years to graduate.
Fact: MMM is a two year program. Since the MBA and MEM programs are completely integrated, graduation requirements for both are met in two years. There are no summer terms so you will still be able to do an internship in the summer between first and second year. Not to mention, you are graduating with two masters degrees but you are only paying for one!!
Myth: Candidates are required to submit separate applications to, and must be admitted by both Kellogg and the McCormick School of Engineering.
Fact: Because the MBA and MEM programs are completely integrated, candidates are only required to submit one application through Kellogg. There is no GRE or FE requirement. The only difference is that in the careers assessment/goals essay, there is a separate question for MMM candidates in which you must address how the MMM program will help you reach your career goals.
Myth: The MMM program is only for “hard” engineers.
Fact: As far as I know, I don’t actually think there is a formal requirement for MMM’s to have an engineering undergraduate background (though most do). Certainly there is no requirement for a “hard” degree. Take me for example, other than the introductory statics and dynamics, thermo, and EE classes I had to take as part of a core engineering curriculum, most all of my systems engineering classes in undergrad where operations and calculus based statistics classes. For those candidates lacking an undergraduate engineering degree, solid work experience in operations or design, or working with engineering teams, or in an industry with an engineering focus would be a compelling reason to pursue the MMM program. Remember, the MEM degree is not as much about engineering, as it is learning how to be an engineering manager and leading groups of people to solve problems. Formally, the pre-reqs for the program can be found on the following link:
https://www.mmm.northwestern.edu/academics/prerequisites.php
Myth: Since MMMs have to take courses from the McCormick School of Engineering, they are disengaged from the rest of Kellogg.
Fact: The main reason I was so keen on this program is because exactly the opposite is true. As a MMM, you are a “dual citizen” of Kellogg and McCormick. What does this mean? It means that you are fully a member of both schools and can take part in all activities in both. Just as any other Kellogg student, you are expected to take an active role in leading Kellogg activities but also have the opportunity to lead activities within McCormick as well. Within Kellogg you also maintain a “dual citizenship” in both your class section, and also the MMM section. One of the other “perks” of the program is the MMM student lounge in the Ford Design center. The MMM student lounge has several team rooms reserved only for MMMs, and is a nice place to relax and get away from Kellogg for a bit.
Myth: The MEM course requirements will greatly detract from your ability to take classes at Kellogg.
Fact: There are a total of five core courses, and four elective courses required to meet the MEM requirement. When you factor in the other five core Kellogg courses, you are still left with ten MBA electives (assuming you only take four classes per quarter). In taking to several past and current MMM students, the MEM required courses in some ways actually make getting desired Kellogg electives easier. For example, since you do not have to bid of MEM, you are left with more bid points to use for MBA electives. At the bottom of the link below you can see a sample two year MMM schedule:
https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Programs/FullTimeMBA/MBA_Programs/MMM_Program.aspx
Myth: The MMM program is only for those candidates interested in the manufacturing industry.
Fact: Most MMMs (75% of the class of 2008) go into industries other than manufacturing. While certainly the curriculum will prepare you for a manufacturing career, the program is designed to teach “systems thinking”. What this means is looking at a business problem holistically from the design phase (design does not necessarily imply the design of a product, it could also be a service, or a strategy), all the way through implementation. Because MMMs are taught to view problems from different perspectives, they can provide great value and insight to any company. A look at the breakdown of 2008 job acceptances by industry reinforces this:
MMM Job Acceptances by Industry %
Consulting.........................................................................................43.9
Other Manufacturing*...........................................................................14.0
High-Tech Manufacturing and Services....................................................10.5
Investment Banking, Brokerage and Securities..........................................10.5
Other Services**.................................................................................10.5
Consumer and Packages Goods...............................................................5.3
Pharmaceuticals, Biotechnology, Healthcare..............................................5.3
*Includes Alternative Energy, Energy, Other, Petroleum, Telecommunications, Widely Diversified
**Includes Commercial Banking, Construction, Entertainment, Government, Venture Capital, Retail
More specific MMM employment data can be found on page 26 of the following PDF link:
https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/career_employer/employment/2008/Kellogg_Employment_Report_2008.pdf
As seen above, for those interested in consulting, the MMM does very well. In fact, 12 out of the 60, or 20% of MMM graduates in 2008 landed jobs at McKinsey, BCG or Bain. This compared to the ~15% of non MMM Kellogg students that went on to M/B/B.
Myth: With an incoming class size of only 55, the MMM program is harder to get into than the 2Y program.
Fact: While the admissions office does not breakdown application statistics specifically for the program, when I asked an admissions officer what the acceptance rate for MMM was compared to 2Y, I was told they are comparable. Based on other conversations though, I am led to believe that from a purely statistical standpoint, it is actually slightly easier to get into MMM vice 2Y.
Myth: The MMM program is pretty much the same as Ross’ MBA/MEM-Tauber program and Sloan’s LFM program.
Fact: While both Tauber and LFM are world renowned dual MBA/engineering programs, neither offers the ease of applying, total program integration, or career flexibility of MMM. Graduates of Ross’ Tauber program will receive both an MBA and MEM. However, the program is three years and separate applications (and GRE) are required for the business and engineering schools. Candidates must be offered admissions from both schools separately. Sloan’s LFM is also a highly regarded manufacturing program that offers fellowships to its students. The catch is that you are expected to work at a sponsoring company in a purely manufacturing capacity upon graduation. If truly engineering and manufacturing are your career goals, then either of these programs will serve you well. However, if your aspirations do not necessarily include a career in manufacturing, then both of these programs may be somewhat limiting.
Hopefully, this hits on most of the major questions about MMM. Please feel free to post any questions you may have and I will try to answer them.
Myth: Since the MMM is a dual degree program, it will take more than two years to graduate.
Fact: MMM is a two year program. Since the MBA and MEM programs are completely integrated, graduation requirements for both are met in two years. There are no summer terms so you will still be able to do an internship in the summer between first and second year. Not to mention, you are graduating with two masters degrees but you are only paying for one!!
Myth: Candidates are required to submit separate applications to, and must be admitted by both Kellogg and the McCormick School of Engineering.
Fact: Because the MBA and MEM programs are completely integrated, candidates are only required to submit one application through Kellogg. There is no GRE or FE requirement. The only difference is that in the careers assessment/goals essay, there is a separate question for MMM candidates in which you must address how the MMM program will help you reach your career goals.
Myth: The MMM program is only for “hard” engineers.
Fact: As far as I know, I don’t actually think there is a formal requirement for MMM’s to have an engineering undergraduate background (though most do). Certainly there is no requirement for a “hard” degree. Take me for example, other than the introductory statics and dynamics, thermo, and EE classes I had to take as part of a core engineering curriculum, most all of my systems engineering classes in undergrad where operations and calculus based statistics classes. For those candidates lacking an undergraduate engineering degree, solid work experience in operations or design, or working with engineering teams, or in an industry with an engineering focus would be a compelling reason to pursue the MMM program. Remember, the MEM degree is not as much about engineering, as it is learning how to be an engineering manager and leading groups of people to solve problems. Formally, the pre-reqs for the program can be found on the following link:
https://www.mmm.northwestern.edu/academics/prerequisites.php
Myth: Since MMMs have to take courses from the McCormick School of Engineering, they are disengaged from the rest of Kellogg.
Fact: The main reason I was so keen on this program is because exactly the opposite is true. As a MMM, you are a “dual citizen” of Kellogg and McCormick. What does this mean? It means that you are fully a member of both schools and can take part in all activities in both. Just as any other Kellogg student, you are expected to take an active role in leading Kellogg activities but also have the opportunity to lead activities within McCormick as well. Within Kellogg you also maintain a “dual citizenship” in both your class section, and also the MMM section. One of the other “perks” of the program is the MMM student lounge in the Ford Design center. The MMM student lounge has several team rooms reserved only for MMMs, and is a nice place to relax and get away from Kellogg for a bit.
Myth: The MEM course requirements will greatly detract from your ability to take classes at Kellogg.
Fact: There are a total of five core courses, and four elective courses required to meet the MEM requirement. When you factor in the other five core Kellogg courses, you are still left with ten MBA electives (assuming you only take four classes per quarter). In taking to several past and current MMM students, the MEM required courses in some ways actually make getting desired Kellogg electives easier. For example, since you do not have to bid of MEM, you are left with more bid points to use for MBA electives. At the bottom of the link below you can see a sample two year MMM schedule:
https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Programs/FullTimeMBA/MBA_Programs/MMM_Program.aspx
Myth: The MMM program is only for those candidates interested in the manufacturing industry.
Fact: Most MMMs (75% of the class of 2008) go into industries other than manufacturing. While certainly the curriculum will prepare you for a manufacturing career, the program is designed to teach “systems thinking”. What this means is looking at a business problem holistically from the design phase (design does not necessarily imply the design of a product, it could also be a service, or a strategy), all the way through implementation. Because MMMs are taught to view problems from different perspectives, they can provide great value and insight to any company. A look at the breakdown of 2008 job acceptances by industry reinforces this:
MMM Job Acceptances by Industry %
Consulting.........................................................................................43.9
Other Manufacturing*...........................................................................14.0
High-Tech Manufacturing and Services....................................................10.5
Investment Banking, Brokerage and Securities..........................................10.5
Other Services**.................................................................................10.5
Consumer and Packages Goods...............................................................5.3
Pharmaceuticals, Biotechnology, Healthcare..............................................5.3
*Includes Alternative Energy, Energy, Other, Petroleum, Telecommunications, Widely Diversified
**Includes Commercial Banking, Construction, Entertainment, Government, Venture Capital, Retail
More specific MMM employment data can be found on page 26 of the following PDF link:
https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/career_employer/employment/2008/Kellogg_Employment_Report_2008.pdf
As seen above, for those interested in consulting, the MMM does very well. In fact, 12 out of the 60, or 20% of MMM graduates in 2008 landed jobs at McKinsey, BCG or Bain. This compared to the ~15% of non MMM Kellogg students that went on to M/B/B.
Myth: With an incoming class size of only 55, the MMM program is harder to get into than the 2Y program.
Fact: While the admissions office does not breakdown application statistics specifically for the program, when I asked an admissions officer what the acceptance rate for MMM was compared to 2Y, I was told they are comparable. Based on other conversations though, I am led to believe that from a purely statistical standpoint, it is actually slightly easier to get into MMM vice 2Y.
Myth: The MMM program is pretty much the same as Ross’ MBA/MEM-Tauber program and Sloan’s LFM program.
Fact: While both Tauber and LFM are world renowned dual MBA/engineering programs, neither offers the ease of applying, total program integration, or career flexibility of MMM. Graduates of Ross’ Tauber program will receive both an MBA and MEM. However, the program is three years and separate applications (and GRE) are required for the business and engineering schools. Candidates must be offered admissions from both schools separately. Sloan’s LFM is also a highly regarded manufacturing program that offers fellowships to its students. The catch is that you are expected to work at a sponsoring company in a purely manufacturing capacity upon graduation. If truly engineering and manufacturing are your career goals, then either of these programs will serve you well. However, if your aspirations do not necessarily include a career in manufacturing, then both of these programs may be somewhat limiting.
Hopefully, this hits on most of the major questions about MMM. Please feel free to post any questions you may have and I will try to answer them.
13 Aug 2009, 18:36
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Great post! As a prospective MMM applicant, many of the myths/facts that you talked about were exactly what I've been thinking about as I decide whether or not the program is suitable for me vs. the normal MBA. The point of being engaged/disengaged in particular is especially helpful. I was also concerned about having fewer Kellogg electives available but your breakdown alleviates that worry and I hadn't even thought about how that could be an advantage in terms of bidding.
Since there isn't much of a Sloan presence here, I wanted to clarify as an applicant a few comments you had on MIT LFM program (now called LGO - Leaders for Global Operations). First, as one might infer from the name change, the manufacturing aspect has been de-emphasized to include the broader area of operations. Also, while students are guaranteed 6.5 month internship with a partner company but there is no hard requirement to work for any partner company. However, the program FAQ does say that most students take a role in manufacturing or operations companies and should make a "good faith effort" to consider the program partners. The FAQ further states "Students seeking careers in banking, financial services, or consulting should consider programs other than LGO that are more aligned with these career goals." I definitely agree with your point that the LGO/LFM program is more narrowly focused than MMM and that's why I'm having a tough time comparing the two. Although the MIT program seems very well integrated, because of an early start in June and the 6.5 month internship, the overall program schedule is pretty different from any other MBA program.
Anyways, thanks again for your insight into MMM and hope to hear more about your thoughts on it!
Since there isn't much of a Sloan presence here, I wanted to clarify as an applicant a few comments you had on MIT LFM program (now called LGO - Leaders for Global Operations). First, as one might infer from the name change, the manufacturing aspect has been de-emphasized to include the broader area of operations. Also, while students are guaranteed 6.5 month internship with a partner company but there is no hard requirement to work for any partner company. However, the program FAQ does say that most students take a role in manufacturing or operations companies and should make a "good faith effort" to consider the program partners. The FAQ further states "Students seeking careers in banking, financial services, or consulting should consider programs other than LGO that are more aligned with these career goals." I definitely agree with your point that the LGO/LFM program is more narrowly focused than MMM and that's why I'm having a tough time comparing the two. Although the MIT program seems very well integrated, because of an early start in June and the 6.5 month internship, the overall program schedule is pretty different from any other MBA program.
Anyways, thanks again for your insight into MMM and hope to hear more about your thoughts on it!
14 Aug 2009, 07:24
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gregarious
Thanks for the insight on the LGO program. I genuinely made a good faith effort at due diligence in backing up everything I wrote, but, I must be honest and say that by the time I got to writing about Sloan, I was getting a bit tired and pretty much put what I remembered reading last year when I was in the process of applying to schools. Regardless, LGO is a great program. But, as you said, it doesn't offer near the flexibility of MMM.
14 Aug 2009, 10:21
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great post!!!
One general question: What's the difference between MMM and Technology Industry Management program (https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/aca ... /index.htm)
The latter says:
The major is useful for students who wish to work as product managers in technology companies, consultants in strategy consulting firms or as entrepreneurs. It is also useful for future general managers who will sponsor initiatives involving enterprise technology.
Seems to be identical (or better suited) for people from the technology background?
One general question: What's the difference between MMM and Technology Industry Management program (https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/aca ... /index.htm)
The latter says:
The major is useful for students who wish to work as product managers in technology companies, consultants in strategy consulting firms or as entrepreneurs. It is also useful for future general managers who will sponsor initiatives involving enterprise technology.
Seems to be identical (or better suited) for people from the technology background?
