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An Indian applying to a Bschool

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Intern
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Joined: 10 Mar 2013
Posts: 36

Kudos [?]: 8 [2] , given: 2

Concentration: Other
GMAT 1: 740 Q47 V45
WE: Analyst (Commercial Banking)
An Indian applying to a Bschool [#permalink]

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New post 07 Jun 2016, 07:48
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KUDOS
Hi Guys,
This is by no means a rant. More so an attempt to help others learn from my experience with applying to B-schools.
I hope many of you can come across this post and hopefully save yourself some money, time and exasperation.
Let me begin by giving you a brief intro about myself.
As the title suggests, I am the typical Indian male who applied for courses beginning fall 2016.

The profile:
1. 3 years work ex with a fortune 50 bank in commercial banking analytics (analytics is supposed to be the hottest field right now. I dont say that, McKinsey and IBM do)
2. 2 promotions in 3 years (was the youngest Associate in the org when I applied)
3. Undergrad GPA of 3.8 in Engineering from University of Pune
4. Very strong extra curriculars (Published 2 international IEEE research papers, taught MMA for 2 years, rose to a good rank in an NGO)
5. GMAT 740 (Q 47 V 45)
6. TOEFL 118

That by all means is a competitive profile. Wouldn't you agree?

The application:
R1:
1. Cornell
2. Duke
3.IESE (Spain)
4. UCLA

R2:
1. Tepper
2. Darden

Got a decline from all. No interview either.
Still on the waitlist for Johnson but that's without interview.

The possible problems?
1. Essays:
Now we hear a lot from B-schools saying that they want someone who demonstrates "FIT". Guys, let me be very honest and tell you that it is a bunch of BS. Absolute BS. Colleges don't care about what you write in your essays. The more number of years the essay is repeated the less read or important it is. There are a lot of admission consultants / gurus who claim to help you tell your story but they are simply fleecing you for cash. It is your hard earned money and hiring a consultant for essays can set you back by a huge margin.
For e.g. I have a friend who applied to Tepper, Darden, Tuck, Cornell, Austin McCombs, Kellogg, Duke, UCLA
He hired a consultant from a famous website and he couldn't convert a single application. The consultant cost him INR 4.5 Lacs and the applications another $250-$300 each. You can do the math on his expense.
I have decently good English( read TOEFL score) and wrote essays with different but convincing goals in R1 and R2. However, a friend of mine ( a girl ) wrote the same essay. Word by Word and she got an admit. Hence Proved.

2. Work Experience:
I have also observed a lot of guys asking for the ideal work experience. After a lot of research I was able to come up with the definition for this. A safe school is one where the average work ex is at most 1 year more than your work ex.
All the schools I applied to had an average work ex of 4 years, which is 1 year less than my work ex. Did that help? Hell no
Quality of work ex? Does that matter? Hell no. I could very well have called myself an Investment Banker and gotten away with it. How do you think a bschool will verify it? Will they ask your firm if its a small hedge fund? They dont have the man power to do that kind of extensive verification. Hence, what matters is the absolute quantity because that can be verified easily.

3. GMAT:
This is as simple as it gets. Indians are used only and I repeat ONLY to skew average GMATs. A 740 is just not good enough guys. I am sorry for being brutally honest but neither is 750. If you are an Indian male with < 5 years work ex, you need a 760 or 770 to get an interview call. Not even an admit. Just the interview call.
E.g. A different friend ( 750 GMAT , 3 yr work ex in Big 4, hired consultant for essay) could not get an admit even to a college like Emory Gozieuta. He is now pursuing MBA from UC Irvine (which ranks 54 in USA and >90 worldwide)

The final Advice:
Its very clear guys. If you just look beyond the glamorous websites that b-schools create, what is the first thing you notice about a bschool? The class profile right? Of course you do. Now this is also what fetches a Bschool its ranking. You are a means to boost that ranking. The girl from Congo or Zaire who has done her undergrad in liberal arts is not gonna give them a 770 and they know it. They will take her at 640 too. That's why they have a range.
Every bschool is worried only about its stats.
If you have 3 or 4 years of work ex, you are not gonna be placed as a manager. That's too less for big firms even if you are a prodigy. They cant place you at entry level jobs because that's too beneath you with a 3 year work ex. So the best thing is to not take you. Why create a head ache for themselves 2 years later.
Bitter Truth: There is always an Indian with your exact profile but with 3 years extra work ex. Its just statistics. Given our population, its highly probable and happens virtually every time.

Take it with a pinch of salt. I have spoken to over 100 people and can cite examples at will. That's all I have done for 3 years. There can be exceptions but 99% of times, this is the norm. If you are a girl however, a 750+ will get you most schools that are ranked 15 and above in the USA.
If you have a 770 you can aim higher, but your M7 are still out of grasps.

Finally for my brother, the fellow Indian male. If you want to dream about M7, your typical profile would be:
770 GMAT, 5 year work ex, 3.8+ GPA, At least a fortune 100 company, 3 promotions or more in 5 years, Alumni recommendations.

Don't even bother getting your profiles evaluated and wasting your time. You'll be disappointed after being given stellar hopes.
Please feel free to ping me to discuss in detail.

Thanks. :)

Kudos [?]: 8 [2] , given: 2

Intern
Intern
avatar
B
Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 35

Kudos [?]: 37 [0], given: 13

Location: India
Concentration: Strategy, General Management
GMAT 1: 680 Q50 V31
GMAT 2: 750 Q51 V39
GPA: 3.7
WE: Consulting (Consulting)
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An Indian applying to a Bschool [#permalink]

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New post 07 Jun 2016, 08:03
loki2686 wrote:
Hi Guys,
This is by no means a rant. More so an attempt to help others learn from my experience with applying to B-schools.
I hope many of you can come across this post and hopefully save yourself some money, time and exasperation.
Let me begin by giving you a brief intro about myself.
As the title suggests, I am the typical Indian male who applied for courses beginning fall 2016.

The profile:
1. 3 years work ex with a fortune 50 bank in commercial banking analytics (analytics is supposed to be the hottest field right now. I dont say that, McKinsey and IBM do)
2. 2 promotions in 3 years (was the youngest Associate in the org when I applied)
3. Undergrad GPA of 3.8 in Engineering from University of Pune
4. Very strong extra curriculars (Published 2 international IEEE research papers, taught MMA for 2 years, rose to a good rank in an NGO)
5. GMAT 740 (Q 47 V 45)
6. TOEFL 118

That by all means is a competitive profile. Wouldn't you agree?

The application:
R1:
1. Cornell
2. Duke
3.IESE (Spain)
4. UCLA

R2:
1. Tepper
2. Darden

Got a decline from all. No interview either.
Still on the waitlist for Johnson but that's without interview.

The possible problems?
1. Essays:
Now we hear a lot from B-schools saying that they want someone who demonstrates "FIT". Guys, let me be very honest and tell you that it is a bunch of BS. Absolute BS. Colleges don't care about what you write in your essays. The more number of years the essay is repeated the less read or important it is. There are a lot of admission consultants / gurus who claim to help you tell your story but they are simply fleecing you for cash. It is your hard earned money and hiring a consultant for essays can set you back by a huge margin.
For e.g. I have a friend who applied to Tepper, Darden, Tuck, Cornell, Austin McCombs, Kellogg, Duke, UCLA
He hired a consultant from a famous website and he couldn't convert a single application. The consultant cost him INR 4.5 Lacs and the applications another $250-$300 each. You can do the math on his expense.
I have decently good English( read TOEFL score) and wrote essays with different but convincing goals in R1 and R2. However, a friend of mine ( a girl ) wrote the same essay. Word by Word and she got an admit. Hence Proved.

2. Work Experience:
I have also observed a lot of guys asking for the ideal work experience. After a lot of research I was able to come up with the definition for this. A safe school is one where the average work ex is at most 1 year more than your work ex.
All the schools I applied to had an average work ex of 4 years, which is 1 year less than my work ex. Did that help? Hell no
Quality of work ex? Does that matter? Hell no. I could very well have called myself an Investment Banker and gotten away with it. How do you think a bschool will verify it? Will they ask your firm if its a small hedge fund? They dont have the man power to do that kind of extensive verification. Hence, what matters is the absolute quantity because that can be verified easily.

3. GMAT:
This is as simple as it gets. Indians are used only and I repeat ONLY to skew average GMATs. A 740 is just not good enough guys. I am sorry for being brutally honest but neither is 750. If you are an Indian male with < 5 years work ex, you need a 760 or 770 to get an interview call. Not even an admit. Just the interview call.
E.g. A different friend ( 750 GMAT , 3 yr work ex in Big 4, hired consultant for essay) could not get an admit even to a college like Emory Gozieuta. He is now pursuing MBA from UC Irvine (which ranks 54 in USA and >90 worldwide)

The final Advice:
Its very clear guys. If you just look beyond the glamorous websites that b-schools create, what is the first thing you notice about a bschool? The class profile right? Of course you do. Now this is also what fetches a Bschool its ranking. You are a means to boost that ranking. The girl from Congo or Zaire who has done her undergrad in liberal arts is not gonna give them a 770 and they know it. They will take her at 640 too. That's why they have a range.
Every bschool is worried only about its stats.
If you have 3 or 4 years of work ex, you are not gonna be placed as a manager. That's too less for big firms even if you are a prodigy. They cant place you at entry level jobs because that's too beneath you with a 3 year work ex. So the best thing is to not take you. Why create a head ache for themselves 2 years later.
Bitter Truth: There is always an Indian with your exact profile but with 3 years extra work ex. Its just statistics. Given our population, its highly probable and happens virtually every time.

Take it with a pinch of salt. I have spoken to over 100 people and can cite examples at will. That's all I have done for 3 years. There can be exceptions but 99% of times, this is the norm. If you are a girl however, a 750+ will get you most schools that are ranked 15 and above in the USA.
If you have a 770 you can aim higher, but your M7 are still out of grasps.

Finally for my brother, the fellow Indian male. If you want to dream about M7, your typical profile would be:
770 GMAT, 5 year work ex, 3.8+ GPA, At least a fortune 100 company, 3 promotions or more in 5 years, Alumni recommendations.

Don't even bother getting your profiles evaluated and wasting your time. You'll be disappointed after being given stellar hopes.
Please feel free to ping me to discuss in detail.

Thanks. :)


Hi Loki,

I have messaged / pinged you on gmatclub please check

Kudos [?]: 37 [0], given: 13

Intern
Intern
avatar
Joined: 26 May 2015
Posts: 33

Kudos [?]: 25 [0], given: 34

Location: United States (CT)
Concentration: Technology, Entrepreneurship
GMAT 1: 700 Q48 V38
WE: Information Technology (Consumer Products)
Reviews Badge
Re: An Indian applying to a Bschool [#permalink]

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New post 08 Jun 2016, 07:00
Loki,
Sorry to hear about your bad application experience. Your post scared the hell out of me. I have recently started writing essays for Ross but after seeing your post, i am in a dilemma now. Any other Indian guys have similar experience here in the forum? Please post it. It will be useful for future applicants.

Kudos [?]: 25 [0], given: 34

Intern
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Joined: 21 Jun 2016
Posts: 1

Kudos [?]: 0 [0], given: 0

An Indian applying to a Bschool [#permalink]

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New post 21 Jun 2016, 21:22
Hi Loki.

I don't usually post on GMAT Club, but I recently got notified of your post and thought it be best if I could just add my two cents.

First off, your profile is ridiculously strong. It is pretty obvious that you would try for the M7s, and other schools too. Further, with your profile, it seems like you are a real hard worker (evident in your promotions) and I'm sure you really deserved it.

That being said, however, my entire perspective of you changed with this:

loki2686 wrote:
I have decently good English( read TOEFL score) and wrote essays with different but convincing goals in R1 and R2. However, a friend of mine ( a girl ) wrote the same essay. Word by Word and she got an admit. Hence Proved.


Word by word? So you mean to say that you copied her essay? Or she copied yours? Or both of you copied a third-persons' essay? All scenarios are pretty bad. And being absolutely unethical, I'm surprised no one else really came forward and introduced you to an interesting term called plagiarism.

The practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

Now, in case you didn't know, every university abroad runs every single paper they receive (assignments, tests, admission essays and even research submissions) through plagiarism software. These software (I've seen them first hand) scan through every possible published document and then numerically grants your essay a percent-score of plagiarism.

Now, since your friend got admitted, I'm assuming that she got her applications reviewed first (there is no proof that the applications that are sent first are reviewed first). Obviously, after she got admitted, when these colleges received your essay, you received a 100% plagiarism score, making your entire application invalid.

The detriments are compounded even further as now the universities have all your info stored, so it is almost 100% going to affect your future prospects of your MBA.

If anything, by copying essays, you have essentially stolen intellectual property. And you search for pity here. Great.

Kudos [?]: 0 [0], given: 0

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Intern
User avatar
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Joined: 28 Oct 2015
Posts: 28

Kudos [?]: 10 [0], given: 0

GMAT 1: 710 Q47 V39
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An Indian applying to a Bschool [#permalink]

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New post 21 Jun 2016, 22:46
dannna wrote:
Hi Loki.

I don't usually post on GMAT Club, but I recently got notified of your post and thought it be best if I could just add my two cents.

First off, your profile is ridiculously strong. It is pretty obvious that you would try for the M7s, and other schools too. Further, with your profile, it seems like you are a real hard worker (evident in your promotions) and I'm sure you really deserved it.

That being said, however, my entire perspective of you changed with this:

loki2686 wrote:
I have decently good English( read TOEFL score) and wrote essays with different but convincing goals in R1 and R2. However, a friend of mine ( a girl ) wrote the same essay. Word by Word and she got an admit. Hence Proved.


Word by word? So you mean to say that you copied her essay? Or she copied yours? Or both of you copied a third-persons' essay? All scenarios are pretty bad. And being absolutely unethical, I'm surprised no one else really came forward and introduced you to an interesting term called plagiarism.

The practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

Now, in case you didn't know, every university abroad runs every single paper they receive (assignments, tests, admission essays and even research submissions) through plagiarism software. These software (I've seen them first hand) scan through every possible published document and then numerically grants your essay a percent-score of plagiarism.

Now, since your friend got admitted, I'm assuming that she got her applications reviewed first (there is no proof that the applications that are sent first are reviewed first). Obviously, after she got admitted, when these colleges received your essay, you received a 100% plagiarism score, making your entire application invalid.

The detriments are compounded even further as now the universities have all your info stored, so it is almost 100% going to affect your future prospects of your MBA.

If anything, by copying essays, you have essentially stolen intellectual property. And you search for pity here. Great.

Whoa dude, that's a little harsh. While you're probably right, you could've put your point across a little better, I don't really think he's looking for pity. Anyway, if he actually did have a friend copy his essay "word for word" then yeah, it is no surprise that he dinged. But again, that's assuming he did copy it exactly and that she applied and had her application reviewed before him.

If what he says is true however, Indians may have a ridiculously hard time getting in without a stellar GMAT score.

Last edited by AvalonQQ on 22 Jun 2016, 02:34, edited 1 time in total.

Kudos [?]: 10 [0], given: 0

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Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 1

Kudos [?]: 0 [0], given: 1

An Indian applying to a Bschool [#permalink]

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New post 22 Jun 2016, 00:47
dannna wrote:
Hi Loki.

I don't usually post on GMAT Club, but I recently got notified of your post and thought it be best if I could just add my two cents.

First off, your profile is ridiculously strong. It is pretty obvious that you would try for the M7s, and other schools too. Further, with your profile, it seems like you are a real hard worker (evident in your promotions) and I'm sure you really deserved it.

That being said, however, my entire perspective of you changed with this:

loki2686 wrote:
I have decently good English( read TOEFL score) and wrote essays with different but convincing goals in R1 and R2. However, a friend of mine ( a girl ) wrote the same essay. Word by Word and she got an admit. Hence Proved.


Word by word? So you mean to say that you copied her essay? Or she copied yours? Or both of you copied a third-persons' essay? All scenarios are pretty bad. And being absolutely unethical, I'm surprised no one else really came forward and introduced you to an interesting term called plagiarism.

The practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.

Now, in case you didn't know, every university abroad runs every single paper they receive (assignments, tests, admission essays and even research submissions) through plagiarism software. These software (I've seen them first hand) scan through every possible published document and then numerically grants your essay a percent-score of plagiarism.

Now, since your friend got admitted, I'm assuming that she got her applications reviewed first (there is no proof that the applications that are sent first are reviewed first). Obviously, after she got admitted, when these colleges received your essay, you received a 100% plagiarism score, making your entire application invalid.

The detriments are compounded even further as now the universities have all your info stored, so it is almost 100% going to affect your future prospects of your MBA.

If anything, by copying essays, you have essentially stolen intellectual property. And you search for pity here. Great.


FULLY AGREE. NO UNIVERSITY WILL GIVE SECOND CHANCE IF THERE IS EVEN 30% MATCH OUTCOME FROM PLAGIARISM SOFTWARE. I hope all Asian applicants are fully aware of this. !!!

Kudos [?]: 0 [0], given: 1

An Indian applying to a Bschool   [#permalink] 22 Jun 2016, 00:47
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