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ke18sb
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 05:56
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Yeltsina

That's funny! You think schools are not aware of the app. consulting industry, and don't implicitly endorse it?!
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I know they are aware and having been pushing back against it. Only until recently have the begun to accept it or at least accept the fact that it isn't going away.
Yeltsina

The whole MBA thing is an exclusive top-priced product, aimed at clients with means. And stating your pre-MBA income, or having non-native speakers compete with US-born candidates on one of the most sophisticated and tricky mass tests ever conceived doesn't seem unjust to you?
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From my understanding of the stating your income portion of the application is merely a metric to gauge career progression. Someone that went from 30k -> 60k ->90k - 120k shows greater career progress than someone that was flat at 150k for 4 years. The actual dollars aren't that important. Regardless, I'm sure its barely even considered in the admissions process.

As far as the GMAT and unfairness to foreigners. I don't think its unfair in the slightest. These are American universities. If you decide you want to study there learn the language. If that is too big of a hurdle for someone, then I'm sure he/she can get a great education either in their country or a similar one that is in their native tongue. The schools have no obligation to change the acceptance process for non-native speakers. Not to mention, if the GMAT is too hard for someone, from a language basis, he/she probably would struggle at school anyway.
Yeltsina

What about legacy money heirs dominating HS and, partially, W, or having a parent from Ivy giving you extra-points as an undergrad, thus further easing your way to the top? As an international, can you explain to me how exactly is THAT coherent with the American ethos of overthrowing inherited unearned aristocracy?
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For starters, as an American, I don't think we have an ethos of overthrowing an inherited unearned aristocracy. While on the one hand I do agree that legacies have a totally unfair advantage. I do also realize that money makes the world go round, and schools such as H/W/S are so good because they have mega endowments and those endowments are funded by wealthy alumni. I also don't feel that being a legacy gets someone in without the stats; its probably just a tie breaker at best. Also, being a son/daughter of an alumni has nothing to do with being American or International.
Yeltsina

You are going to the business world, and despite all the feel-good rhetorics you hear it's ultimately about competing and winning by all means, not about "fairness". It is brutal and ugly underneath. If you are not doing at least as much as your competitors, you've already lost. That's life, and life is not fair at all. Sad, but true. Face it.
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While true to a degree, you are missing some underlying differing business principles. To be successful in business - in the long term - you need to have a solid ethics/value system in place. It's not just an arms race making sure you are as competitive as your competitors. If everyone in your industry is taking short cuts, while they may beat you in the short run, they will lose to you in the long run. Enron and Lehman come to mind here.
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 08:12
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Yeltsina

You are going to the business world, and despite all the feel-good rhetorics you hear it's ultimately about competing and winning by all means, not about "fairness". It is brutal and ugly underneath. If you are not doing at least as much as your competitors, you've already lost. That's life, and life is not fair at all. Sad, but true. Face it.
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+1 I don't necessarily agree with everything you said, but this is the truth. I for one played the bootstrapper card this year and it didn't really do anything for me at W.

As far as Admissions Consultants go - is it that they really help bring out the best in you and find those incredible stories or the fact that you coughed up the cash and want to ensure you are getting your money's worth so you try harder or perhaps they convince you to take bigger risks than you would alone?
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 08:51
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longhorn07
I’m also a bit turned off by the growing use of consultants in the admissions process. I’ve always thought that if you weren’t good enough to get into a top 10 school without someone holding your hand each step of the way, well, you probably don’t belong to begin with. I know not all of you will agree with my stance, especially those with a “get in at any cost” mentality, but I take a good amount of pride knowing I didn’t need any third party help to be competitive at the best schools in the world. To some, this satisfaction is worthless, but hey, to each his own…

However, I don’t think that the use of consultants is any more unethical than say, signing up for a professional GMAT course. Both services are geared towards those who can afford to spend the money, and in essence you are paying to get coached professionally. Much like Yale does for its law school application, I do wish all the major business schools would require each applicant to disclose how much third party help s/he received during the process. I think this added level of transparency would certainly help clarify the “holistic” picture of each application.
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Ok, time for me to chime in here....

First of all, saying that using a GMAT course is at all unethical is completely silly. The GMAT is a unique test where practicing questions and learning new techniques to answer them is almost more important than studying the material covered. Also, many companies (including most investment banks and private equity firms) will pay for their employees to take a GMAT class....hard to say no to free help on an important test.

Second, it's not like the use of admissions consultants is something you were unaware of. You were obviously fully aware of the industry's existence and chose not to pay for its services. Do you also believe that using equity research to help evaluate investments is unethical? Do you take pride in doing anything else on your own when help is available?

Third, how is using this forum to help you with your application or interviews different from an ethical standpoint. Just because you're not paying for our services doesn't mean you're not using other people to help you by reading and posting on this forum.

Please try to be a little less judgmental in your post....would be much appreciated...
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 09:03
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Yeltsina

The whole MBA thing is an exclusive top-priced product, aimed at clients with means. And stating your pre-MBA income, or having non-native speakers compete with US-born candidates on one of the most sophisticated and tricky mass tests ever conceived doesn't seem unjust to you? What about legacy money heirs dominating HS and, partially, W, or having a parent from Ivy giving you extra-points as an undergrad, thus further easing your way to the top? As an international, can you explain to me how exactly is THAT coherent with the American ethos of overthrowing inherited unearned aristocracy?

It's just a status game: "credentialed, not educated".
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I hear what you're saying. And trust me, I've felt my fair share of frustration and exhaustion during this process. But is it possible that another significant group of MBA students doesn't fit into the mold you've described? Under represented minorities, international students (sometimes), former military, and to some extent non traditional candidates.

I'm sure it would have added points on my essay if both of my parents had attended an Ivy league school. But I think my application would've had even more of a "WOW" factor if I was the first person in my family to attend college and pursue a graduate education.

Without a doubt some of the most impressive current students I've met (not just from Wharton) have been URM - some of whom are receiving substantial fellowships to attend. Former military also appear to represent a strong contingent of successful applicants. Many military (and former military) applicants have their application fees waived. And veterans appear to have a visible presence on the campuses I've visited. To me, this indicates that the AdComs aren't just interested in filling their classes with monied elites.

Doesn't Wharton shoot for a 40% international student body each year? It might be the case that these students might have a lower V score than I received. But I guarantee that the Q score of the majority of those applicants would put me to shame.

As far as credentialed but not educated goes - I think this is a criticism that applies to higher learning (in the US and abroad) in general.
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 09:22
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yea i definitely think that Yeltsina is a little off...i know how annoying / frustrating this process is

i am a current active duty mil applicant - from a direct combat type role - i am nowhere near as smart as many applicants but my leadership stories come from carrying injured soldiers out of hell holes after having my vehicles smashed by massive roadside bombs..oh yea then the shooting starts and you have to filter a million points of data and get people home alive then you go back out the next day and do it again

by the way we also do lots of political engagements / project / microgrants / developing - leading people - a motive for many of us to transfer our skills to the civilian world - many times we earn an MBA to gain context and get the credibility we need to get leadership roles in the private sector

the military applicants are just as diverse as private sector, yet we usually get lumped together whether we saw any actual combat or not, it is not like we get a golden ticket

it is frustrating for everyone, we all have to take our hits and move on and get through it and in the end we will all make it

only about 29% of Americans even finish college, we are here to be the leaders and try to improve things. people from the army like me have seen all the high school kids from rough inner cities, trailer parks, and middle of nowhere small towns, i have been humbled by how much they sacrifice to make a better life for their families and take the first step, especially in war time

we are all alot luckier than we think, lets focus on getting it done and not looking at excuses, if we do not make the cut there is a reason

i did not make it at mit - i was bitter and felt sorry for myself for a few days, then i looked and said - you know what you could have performed better on the interview and maybe showed a different side on an essay - i took a hard look at myself and used the lessons to improve my wharton, darden, and yale apps

nobody on here should feel sorry for themselves, lets just make it happen, i have buddies today getting blown up in the middle of nowhere, sorry you did not get your first pick of school but get over it and get over yourself, we all have to
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 10:15
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wp06

only about 29% of Americans even finish college, we are here to be the leaders and try to improve things. people from the army like me have seen all the high school kids from rough inner cities, trailer parks, and middle of nowhere small towns, i have been humbled by how much they sacrifice to make a better life for their families and take the first step, especially in war time

i did not make it at mit - i was bitter and felt sorry for myself for a few days, then i looked and said - you know what you could have performed better on the interview and maybe showed a different side on an essay - i took a hard look at myself and used the lessons to improve my wharton, darden, and yale apps
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Good post, although I think the 29% comes from older census data. I believe the current number is closer to 40% (cited in this nyt article). Still an amazingly low number. For me, it definitely highlights the extent to which the people that I interact with on a daily basis aren't at all indicative of the US population as a whole.

I also wanted to point out, that if/when I get dinged by a school. I'm planning to feel exceedingly bitter towards everything that has to do with that school for at least several weeks. :wink:
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 11:04
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Finally, a compelling, down-to-earth and candid conversation.

Coming from the (currently burning) Middle East, I have the UTMOST respect for the US Army, and for the country able to build and sustain it.

Without the American Experiment and its historically unprecedented success, the whole world would undoubtedly slide back into new Dark Ages and World Wars. I firmly believe that all other semi-decent countries (and I'm not talking about primitive and brutal medieval regimes) can afford to stay clean and play with beautiful "social security" concepts only because the American people, fundamentally, bear all the costs of keeping the peace on this Earth. Truly, non-Americans should be eternally grateful to Americans for the state of the world right now - while imperfect, immeasurably more safe than ever in the history of mankind.

However, as a foreigner who really loves and respects your country, it truly hurts seing how it strays from its own principles - which made it so great in the first place. "ke18sb" wrote: "as an American, I don't think we have an ethos of overthrowing an inherited unearned aristocracy". I don't know what is taught nowadays in your schools about the American history, but from what I learned, the whole idea of the American Revolution was indeed about breaking the chains of British Monarchy - the epitome of unearned aristocratic wealth and power.

As far as I understand, the beauty of the American Idea is meritocracy - the notion that if you are good, you'll do well. You don't need to inherit your wealth and fortune - you can make it by your own hand.

In this light, I find it simply despicable that the children of Ivy-league alumni are given extra-points and thus, unfair, unearned, inherited advantage over others who do not possess the "merit" - actually, a complete accident, a wild chance - of luckily being born to the "right" family.

Don't disregard the fact that the number of seats in these institutions - the "target schools" and the "Top-MBAs" - is FINAL. By giving the place there to some legacy-kid who went to the "right" school (name it a "tie breaker" or whatever) and afterwards, to the "right industry" - you necessarily deny it from some other guy, who worked as hard or even harder.

At the bottom line, your society is the one which loses. We all need them PHDs - poor, hungry and driven. These are the true "wealth creators" who are advancing the American society, and thus - the human race. Preferring the legacy / "old wealth" candidates, or "playing it safe" with mostly those who come from well-paying industries and are going back there - is not the American way. The motto of the US used to be "equality of opportunity" - and truly, I don't feel it is anymore. Not in this MBA-applications world, in any case.

America needs the "internationals" - we are your most passionate ambassadors in our home countries. We are your future trade partners. Promoting the free market all over the world lowers the risks of wars - and the costs of maintaining the peace, freeing the resources to discover new drugs - or new planets. TOEFL should check our ability to thrive in the English-speaking world, not GMAT (on which even the quantitative part is based on mind-boggling language tricks and definitions).

And don't get me started on the "ethics" of Lehman / Enron vs., e.g., Goldman Sachs. Some competitors are just "more equal" than others: by being "too big to fall", having the right connections and sending ex-MBAs to top government positions, or simply siphoning taxpayers' money by legislation in order to sustain the "ethical" business model of predatory lending and government-backed mortgages to everyone. Please...

I know for a fact it's an ugly world out there, and frankly, I just find it hard to swallow all the pinkish fake "fair" world-vision, perpetuated mindlessly.

The HYP - and the HSW in the MBA world - are simply and blatantly building a new American aristocracy. It is perfectly apparent to an outsider. As in Orwell's "Animal Farm", did you overthrew the enslavers only to turn into them?
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 11:17
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oh man
you're losing sight of the whole point of this thread.
go look for other forums, you nuts.
btw, I'm not American nor did I study in an Ivy League Institution.
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wp06
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 11:19
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Yeltsina - in response to this :

"In this light, I find it simply despicable that the children of Ivy-league alumni are given extra-points and thus, unfair, unearned, inherited advantage over others who do not possess the "merit" - actually, a complete accident, a wild chance - of luckily being born to the "right" family. "

I think alot of this is a little less devious, let's just break this down for a second, ok I went to West Point and may go to Wharton or Darden or wherever I get in. All very good schools, I paid my dues like everyone else, and I will be very inclined to 1)set the example for my children 2)to give them every opportunity to excel and pursue their passions 3)use my network and experiences to prepare them

So I think alot more of this is less "aristocracy" and more families creating their own culture and sense of competition and pride.

I, probably unlike a majority of American applicatns (i could be wrong) have lived in the small and isolated town in the south and other random places.

Right now I live right near Auburn, and do not get me wrong, lots of students down here are great. My wife is a high school teacher and has some great kids in there. But the overwhelming majority are content to just go to Auburn, or UGA and watch football and have a decent regular life. They do not necessarily have parents or influencers in their life operning their eyes to opportunities like Wharton.

All I am trying to say is that say I go to Wharton, then my kids go to an Ivy League School or Service Academy - it is not fair to just say they got in due to legacy. Maybe they were smart, driven, and made it happen. Maybe I exposed them to the schools and brought them to games and functions and made an impression. I would never force them t pick a school but it is likely they will be more disposed to try.

Unfortunately, it is a mertiocracy but that does not mean everyone makes it to the top. Some of the best will be the girl from the bronx, the poor white male from the dust down, or the son or daughter of an ivy league alum, as long as the person is driven, humble, and has a sense of values I think they deserve everything they get.
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 11:32
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Let's keep the existential and political debates out of this thread and try to focus on Wharton, the admissions process, interviews, and the occasional humorous post....

Posted from my mobile device
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 11:36
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ok cool
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 12:32
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How long should I have to wait for an alumni to respond to my email? I sent it on Friday and I haven't heard back from him yet... Should I contact another alumni, or AdCom?
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 13:12
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reimon
How long should I have to wait for an alumni to respond to my email? I sent it on Friday and I haven't heard back from him yet... Should I contact another alumni, or AdCom?
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i had to wait 2 and 1/2 days before i heard from alum..you may want to wait till the end of today and if do not hear contact the adcom. they seem to pretty nice in handling alum scheduling issue. I had made a mistake in confirming interview time in the online system, i called them and they reset my appointment.
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 13:19
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alum scheduling is not without its share of doubts and paranoia; can someone advise on following

should i semi-formally email alum asking the duration he wants interview for (so i could set aside that much time), and if he wants me bring something specific to the interview?

i received a detailed email from adcom detailing the steps i can take to schedule alum (after i contacted them about online system), should i send a thank you mail to adcom for emailing me with details?

i visited wharton class/on-site before applying, but did not mention that in essays and now i am doing alum interview. how do i communicate to them that i have done on-site class to show commitment?
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 14:50
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I’m also a bit turned off by the growing use of consultants in the admissions process. I’ve always thought that if you weren’t good enough to get into a top 10 school without someone holding your hand each step of the way, well, you probably don’t belong to begin with. I know not all of you will agree with my stance, especially those with a “get in at any cost” mentality, but I take a good amount of pride knowing I didn’t need any third party help to be competitive at the best schools in the world. To some, this satisfaction is worthless, but hey, to each his own…

However, I don’t think that the use of consultants is any more unethical than say, signing up for a professional GMAT course. Both services are geared towards those who can afford to spend the money, and in essence you are paying to get coached professionally. Much like Yale does for its law school application, I do wish all the major business schools would require each applicant to disclose how much third party help s/he received during the process. I think this added level of transparency would certainly help clarify the “holistic” picture of each application.
Ok, time for me to chime in here....

First of all, saying that using a GMAT course is at all unethical is completely silly. The GMAT is a unique test where practicing questions and learning new techniques to answer them is almost more important than studying the material covered. Also, many companies (including most investment banks and private equity firms) will pay for their employees to take a GMAT class....hard to say no to free help on an important test.

Second, it's not like the use of admissions consultants is something you were unaware of. You were obviously fully aware of the industry's existence and chose not to pay for its services. Do you also believe that using equity research to help evaluate investments is unethical? Do you take pride in doing anything else on your own when help is available?

Third, how is using this forum to help you with your application or interviews different from an ethical standpoint. Just because you're not paying for our services doesn't mean you're not using other people to help you by reading and posting on this forum.

Please try to be a little less judgmental in your post....would be much appreciated...
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Touché!
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 15:34
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Question for the forum- is it for sure that the interview will consist of three of the six leaked behavioural questions?
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 15:40
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Question for the forum- is it for sure that the interview will consist of three of the six leaked behavioural questions?
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I sure hope so, I interview tomorrow on campus and that is what I have prepared for! I'll debrief tomorrow...
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 15:43
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Does anybody have insight on interviewing with June (HCM specific interview) and what type of format / questions to expect?

Thanks!
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 15:50
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rpratt620
ghunar
Question for the forum- is it for sure that the interview will consist of three of the six leaked behavioural questions?

I sure hope so, I interview tomorrow on campus and that is what I have prepared for! I'll debrief tomorrow...
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Thanks- good luck! Let us know how it goes. From what I can tell from every on campus recap I've read it's just 3 of those 6 questions- I guess that's your sense as well.
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jk12
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Calling all Wharton 2011 Applicants 21 Feb 2011, 16:51
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jk12
alum scheduling is not without its share of doubts and paranoia; can someone advise on following

should i semi-formally email alum asking the duration he wants interview for (so i could set aside that much time), and if he wants me bring something specific to the interview?

i received a detailed email from adcom detailing the steps i can take to schedule alum (after i contacted them about online system), should i send a thank you mail to adcom for emailing me with details?

i visited wharton class/on-site before applying, but did not mention that in essays and now i am doing alum interview. how do i communicate to them that i have done on-site class to show commitment?
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can experienced ones help with these seemingly little things. thank you
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