From a Canadian Undergrad - What Are My Chances?

Question

Hey guys, I am relatively new to this board although, I have been reading the threads for a few months now. I am currently entering my 4th year of undergrad at a relatively top rated Canadian University. I am looking at MBA programs and would like some of your opinions and thoughts.

To be honest, my biggest concern is my under grad GPA. Just some background, I am raised by a single mother and have an older brother who is disabled. During my first year of undergrad, I worked full time while attending school full time (school from 9-4 and work from 5-10+ weekends). Quite simply, I needed to support the family. So needless to say, my first year GPA was literally a 1.5 (I was just concerned about getting through). However, a positive that came from this is that my boss recognized how hard I was working and how much I needed it, etc. so I got promoted to management. This was great because I would be making 50% more and working half the hours. Thus, second year, my GPA went from 1.5 to 2.7 (still not good, but I was happy with the progress).

For those of you who dont know, Canadian MBA's generally take the average for your last 2 academic years. Because of this, I knew I needed to make the decision to quite my job and focus strictly on my studies as my 3rd year would be critical. By this time, I had saved enough to pay my tuition so as long as I lived within my means, I didn't NEED to work like I did the previous 2 years (My mom had a steady position by now). I decided to focus my attention on things I enjoy and started a website. Now, I am a Poli Sci major and know very little about graphic design and stuff. (Basically, I taught myself everything from advertising to designing to marketing, etc) The site is projected to have over 1 million hits come time for my application. The reason this is relevant is because my interests have always been in capital markets and investment banking. The site teaches basic technical analysis and provides market commentary so I hope that this would be seen as an asset to leadership. Also, during my third year, I was able to bring my average up to a 3.2.

I have been studying diligently all summer for the GMAT. I am taking it in approx. 2 months. Now assuming I get a 700 (not saying that this will happen for certain, just a hypothetical), would I even be competitive enough for an interview? I project that my 4th year GPA will be roughly 3.5-3.6. Therefore, for Canadian MBAs, I would be competitive.

However, my question is how American Universities calculate gpa's. Every Canadian university I have talked to looks at different things (I believe some take the last 10 level 3/4 courses) and others take the classes taken IN your third and fourth year regardless of the level, etc. However ,my two dream schools are Cornell or INSEAD.

Provided Johnson uses the best 60 units approach, my GPA would be competitive (I assume). However, if all classes are considered, I dont think I can realistically get there. Also, I notice INSEAD does not specify a GPA nor does many of the people on the board who have applied there specified. Can anyone let me know whether or not these two schools are even within my means. Also, do the two years full time count as work experience? Technically, I was still a student however, I don't think that working 30-40 hours a week should be thrown out JUST because I was a student at the time.

Thanks in advanced. Also, I would be interested in some other school suggestions as well.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that my major GPA is 3.25 (I dont know whether or not that even makes a difference).

cheetarah1980 · Answer

Hi ross! Welcome to GC. US schools evaluate your application based on your cumulative GPA over all 4 years. However, they do more than just look at the overall GPA. They factor in your school (some schools are known for being more rigorous than others), major, the classes you took, and the trend in your grades. From what you are saying your grades have an upward trend which is good. Adcoms often understand that it can take some people a little while to adjust to college life. In your case you had the additional responsibility of working to help support your family. This will definitely be factored into their evaluation of you.

There is no minimum GPA you need to apply to a school. People have gotten into schools that are more selective than Johnson with GPAs under a 3.0. It's all about explaining what happened without making excuses and then finding ways to mitigate that weakness in your application. While your cumulative GPA will be under Johnson's and INSEAD's averages I would not let that prohibit you from applying in a few years. I do not know much about INSEAD, but I do know that Johnson isn't that much of a prestige whore about where a person went to undergrad, so your alma mater likely will not hurt your application.

As for your work experience to date, it will not count as full-time experience. However, you can definitely include it in your application under part-time work experience during college. If the work you were doing relates to your career after undergrad or gave you some experience that would add value to classroom discussions. Working full-time as an office assistant or stocking shelves at the hardware store isn't what adcoms are looking for and will not enhance your application (the management experience would likely be helpful). Just count them as college jobs.

Hope this helps.

ross417 · Answer

Hey, Thanks so much for your response!!

My biggest dilemma is that I should not have any problems getting into a local MBA program immediately after graduation. Therefore, I wonder whether it is worth it to take some entry level position for 2-3 years and take my chances on Johnson or to simply pursue the MBA (which would have integrated co-op, and I would have the experience plus the degree). The thing is, as I am sure you know, Canadian MBAs (for the most part) may not be able to compete in the U.S. I intend to pursue capital markets/investment banking and am open to job opportunities in the United States. However, I don't know whether the MBA I would pursue would position me to adequately compete. Therefore, I would prefer to go straight into Johnson and even start off at an entry position upon graduation and work my way up over time. I understand it doesn't work that way, but I am just at a crossroads....mainly because even if I wait the 2-3 years, I still may not be competitive enough thus, leaving me where I am today.

AVByT · Answer

Hey ross417 - Let me start by saying that either way your dilemma is good cause it helps you figure out your way forward. Further, like you, I was always kinda in the same dilemma about 5 years ago when I decided to take the MBA path but didn't do well on that cause my goals and profile were kinda premature, but that's my story.

For you, I'd say that being an MBA hopeful for some years you must not only look at the school but how competitive you are with the rest of the people applying to that school. I'm not only talking about GMAT and GPA but the more holistic you. Take for instance your choice to go to INSEAD. INSEAD is a very international school and naturally they are looking for applicants with strong international experience/exposure/mindset apart from leadership, contribution capabilities and finally the academic strengths and to ensure that you are a successful applicant you must have strengths in most of those areas. Similarly for your dilemma about local school Vs US schools most of them will require solid work experience. I think an Average work experience for the top 20 schools is between 4 - 6 years so considering such facts you should look at working to bring out your best abilities.

I'd say you'd be more much competitive after some years of work experience as you are planning way ahead. By coming here and talking about it you've already taken step 1. Now look at your target schools research them, talk to School Alums and more importantly strengthen your profile so you stand out for the school of your choice.

Hope this helps...

ross417 · Answer

Thank you everyone so much for all your input...it helps tremendously!!

Perhaps this had made the decision even harder. Reading and talking to like minded individuals has made me want to pursue Johnson even more! Perhaps then, if I could ask your opinion as certainly, there are many factors which come into play.

Living in Canada, if I puruse my local 2 MBA programs, (they both have the co-op option for students straight out of undergrad). I am told that the co-op placements are guaranteed. These two programs are 2 years (3 work terms, 3 academic terms). The schools report over 85% hiring rate post co-op placements so lets just assume that it is accurate. Tuition would be roughly 20-40k w/o living expenses (I will commute). The co-op placements would be paid so technically, the tuition would cover itself(or most of it atleast). Initially, I am sold on this...the two schools are not top 5 however, I am sure one of them are top 10 for sure (top 10 in Canada that is). The issue is that outside of Canada, 8/10 people probably did not hear of the program.

The reason I bring this up is because if I decide to pursue Johnson, I would have to use those 2 years working at an entry level position to gain the experience to at least be able to apply to Johnson. Therefore, if I dont get into Johnson then, Ill end up locally anyways. My point it, if I were to know 100% that I would get into Johnson after my work experience, I would 100% wait it out. However, the fact is that I am taking a complete chance...and even moreso given my low gpa.

Moreover, I am willing to bet that the co-op placements would pay me the same/maybe even more than my entry level position would (on a per month basis when I am working). My undergrad is in Poli Sci so its not like I would be able to get into IB till after my MBA. Thus, my question for you guys is whether you know of schools giving deferred admissions contingent on work experience?

I hope this doesn't sound dumb or anything...perhaps I am not adequately conveying the situation. I realized 1.5 years into my BA that IB is FOR SURE what I want to do. By this time, I was almost 80% complete on my Poli Sci requirements so I stuck it through hoping on an MBA post grad. What makes matters worse is that some of the "ivey" schools look down upon a 2nd MBA so I have to either pick one or the other. In Canada, most schools take the last 2 years, my school told me if my marks do not drop, I dont have to worry...(3.0 min. required for last 2 years, and I have 3.25 with 6 classes to go). Any thoughts/comments/advice would be highly appreciated.

Thanks again everyone for your kind input and help! I truly appreciate it!

cheetarah1980 · Answer

Where do you want to work? If it's the US, get your MBA in the US. IB is a prestige oriented industry. If your school isn't a target for firms, you're likely not getting in. You might be able to snag a job in a support role for an investment bank, but it's unlikely you can move internally to a customer facing role.

As for doing the MBA in Canada and a 2nd one in the US, most schools don't allow people to do a 2nd MBA especially if the curriculum in the 1st one is similar. Honestly, your GPA is not that low. You can get into Johnson with it given the fact that you worked so much during undergrad. The only schools I know that welcome applications from undergrads then allow them to defer are HBS and Stanford and you're not even looking at those schools. Long term I think you would have more options if you worked for 2-3 years and then pursued the MBA. In that time you are likely to be promoted so it's not like you'll be applying to schools from an entry level position. Are there not banking jobs in Canada? You don't need to have a degree in finance to get into IB. Take some econ and finance electives to show that you're interested and then apply to some firms.

I think you might be overthinking all of this a little bit.

ross417 · Answer

cheetarah1980, Thanks again for your input!

To be honest, if I put as much thought into my undergrad as I am this, Id have a 4.0!! lol
I am quite indecisive and literally think about it in my sleep.

And you are right...what I failed to mention is that Rotman is probably the most notable for IB candidates. I believe it is ranked 1 or 2 in Canada. In my honest opinion, I am not a fan of the price tag (especially relative to other Canadian MBAs). I am told that Rotman grads are great in Canada but may not be recognized worldwide. I dont necessarily know whether I will go work in the United States however, if that opportunity presented itself, I would be all over it. Although, even if I stayed in Canada, Cornell is highly regarded also so it works for both. Also, the alumni network is far superior at Johnson (in my opinion). Thus, if I were to drop 100k+, on an MBA, I would want it to be "my dream school" so to speak which is why I have my heart set on Johnson.

Note: this is not a ding at Rotman. I know many people who went to Rotman and they absolutely love it! It is a great school, I am just not sure if I want to work in Canada.

ross417 · Answer

Also, cheetarah1980, I have to ask...are you matriculating at Kellogg? If so, what do you think of it?

cheetarah1980 · Answer

I'm matriculating at Booth. I absolutely love Kellogg, though. It's a great school with really smart, accomplished people who you'd want to hang out with outside the classroom. Kellogg's career services office is top notch too. Kellogg is known by laypeople to be the "marketing school" but it kicks ass in so many other areas. I'd say the Finance department is Kellogg's best kept secret. I think what I love most about Kellogg is the focus on teamwork and leadership. Kellogg recognizes that business comes down to people and you've gotta work with many different types. The only caveat to this is that Kellogg tends to attract and accept pretty outgoing, easy to get along with people so some of the challenging nature of working in teams is mitigated by not having too many difficult (i.e. douchey) people around (if that makes sense).

ross417 · Answer

haha yes, that actually makes a lot of sense! I have yet to hear anyone say something negative about Kellogg!

Congrats on Booth! I can imagine how excited you must have been when you saw that acceptance letter! Definitely one of the highest regarded b-schools in the world!

EDIT: I just spent 20 minutes reading your blog. It sounds amazing!! I can't wait for the day I get the call!

brainhurt · Answer

Hmmm. I just typed up a long post and it disappeared when I hit preview. Let me try to remember my great insights.

- I'm at Johnson, went to Canadian undergrad (am Canadian), had a low-ish GPA (bottom of 80th %ile range).
- Your GPA shouldn't stop you from applying, I know several people at Johnson who had lower GPAs than me. The adcom looks at your cumulative GPA but will also look at trends (i.e., a positive trend like yours is good).
- A strong GMAT will offset the GPA issue somewhat. For IB recruiting they look at your GMAT score as part of the selection process (the BBs anyway) so you're going to need a strong GMAT anyway.
- Your lack of experience won't neccessarily preclude you from getting in at Johnson. I know a number of "straight throughs". You would need to tell a good story though.
- Your lack of experience will be a hinderance for IB recruiting IMO. I'm not on the IB track (asset management) so take what I say with a grain of salt, though I have a number of friends at Johnson in IB so I know a bit about the process. 
- IB recruiting has been tough for a couple years now everywhere. As an MBA you would be applying for an associate-level role supervising analysts who have the same amount of work and life experience as you (in the eyes of the bank anyway). You would be competing for scarce positions against people with relevant work experience they can talk about during their interviews. You will have a tough time selling yourself to mid- or top-tier i-banks. And if an MBA program thinks you're going to struggle with recruiting for the thing that you singularly want to do, you're going to have a hard time convincing them to admit you.
- I suggest you pursue an analyst program with a Canadian i-bank. Work your nuts off for a couple years, then apply to a US MBA program if you really really want to work at a high profile US i-bank. I know you have conviction now, but you may change your mind down the road. Or get a non-ibank role, work your nuts off, get some interesting stories to talk about, and then apply to a US MBA program.
- If you're not fixated on a high-profile US i-bank and really want to do your MBA now, go for Rotman and try to get an associate position at a Canadian i-bank. You may be able to make a move to NYC after you prove yourself. I have no idea if this is a viable option as I don't know the Canadian IB recruiting environment, but it sounds like you think it might be.
- Having said all that, there are always exceptions so you have to do what's right for you. I can tell you that I was surprised to find how process-oriented the recruiting/career path is for certain disciplines (including IB).
- Regardless of what you decide to pursue, make sure you can concisely communicate a compelling story about why you want to do what you propose. I can't emphasize this enough.

Good luck!

ps - I don't visit GC often so if you reply I might not see it for some time.

ross417 · Answer

Thank you so much for your detailed response!!!!

I have thoroughly looked at every possible option...(If I spend enough time studying the GMAT as I do researching potential schools, Id have over 700 lol)

And I have looked at Rotman...see my issue with Rotman is the sticker price. Now before anyone jumps on me, hear me out. I have no problem paying THAT amount for an MBA (or taking out a loan for that matter). However, if I DO choose to spend over 100k on an MBA I want to be absolutely THRILLED to be doing so. In terms of the difference between Johnson/HBS/Yale etc. etc, In my honest opinion, there is a difference in terms of the overall rep. recruiting, and alumni connections. However, in terms of price, Rotman is slightly cheaper but they are fairly comparable (given living expenses in Toronto). In other words, if I am going to accumulate a great deal of debt, I want to be able to attend "the school of my dreams." Please note: THIS IS NOTHING AGAINST ROTMAN...I think Rotman is a wonderful school (probably #1 in Canada, I just don't think it is for me).

With that said, I have always been open to the possibility of a Phd program in either International Business/Global Political Economy (or something along those lines). I feel as though it would be the perfect marriage of my graduate and undergraduate studies. Granted, I would be open to work post-MBA for a year or two before deciding definitively. Again, relocating to the United States is a possibility also.

The thing that bothers me about working after undergrad is this: If I choose to pursue a Phd, recruiting would not matter as much as the relationships I have built with the faculty. However, even if I decide to enter the workforce, I would not be looking for "CEO' positions until much later in my career (if I do not pursue a doctorate).

The thing is, I am looking at many of the entry level job positions my friends are getting (those who are a year older) and they are paying comparably the same as what would be paid to me if I pursue if I pursue an MBA locally. The program locally is a 2 year-internship program so I figure, either way, Ill end up working. If I pursue the MBA program locally, at least Ill work AND essentially get an MBA for free. However, I would then be turned away from Cornell for already having an MBA

On the other hand, I can take an entry level position for two years, then take my chances at Johnson after that. In which case, if I don't get in, I am back where I started. Thus, I would prefer to just go straight to Johnson and Ill work at a semi-entry level and work my way up the old fashioned way. It just frustrates me how some of the people I look up to and "want to be like" someday all seemed to pursue an MBA immediately after their undergrad. Growing up, I thought Id be able to do the same, but more and more schools are looking for the work experience now!

I think I am even more confused now! ahhhh

Thank you again though for your ample response

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