GMAT Club Ethics Committee Suggestion

Question

bb  , I would encourage GMAT Club itself to put this recommendation into practice. I have combed through enough posts by moderators (whom I will not name) who sing the praises of, say, Company X or Company Y without disclosing that GMAT Club has financial ties to these companies (a glance at the Partners list at the bottom of the main page tells as much), and that should change.

And if people think e-GMAT is the only company engaging in this sort of unethical behavior, I am sorry, but they are sorely mistaken. I could produce a list of at least five "shell" accounts that do nothing but reward kudos to Company X as soon as one of its representatives creates a post. And I could also point to many posts in which members have complained about their experience with these top-rated companies, yet somehow their reviews never make it to the appropriate section of the site. It is no coincidence that only positive reviews appear for certain companies when those companies themselves ask their best students to post those reviews. I find this sort of marketing disgusting, and even though I will do nothing about it other than to express my contempt for the practice here, I think it would be in everyone's interest for GMAT Club to set up an ethics committee to ensure the integrity of site.

- Andrew

AndrewN · Answer

Dragoon088 , you did the right thing. I do not have your courage, or I would expose a lot more. I can only hope that this incident will serve as a stimulus to clean up some of the unethical behavior that passes for advice on this site.

- Andrew

IanStewart · Answer

I think most people understand that they shouldn't trust what they read on the internet. That's just as true in the GMAT arena as it is anywhere else. There have, sadly, always been a few shady operators in the GMAT universe, but in the last three or four years, the situation has gotten dramatically worse, at least as I see things. Prep companies hocking their products now make so many deceptive claims and engage in so many other dishonest practices that the best advice I can give a test taker is to just ignore any advertising, self-serving company posts, or endorsements from people you don't know. I'd suggest only trusting people you know personally, and your own appraisals of prep offerings.

I find it really sad that things have devolved this far -- GMAT forums used to be full of teachers who used GMAT Club and Beat The GMAT to share their expertise and to help test takers improve. Now GMAT Club is full of marketers, making increasingly outlandish claims, claims that are transparently misleading if you scrutinize them at all. It really isn't fun to come to this forum any more.

I find it really sad that things have devolved this far -- GMAT forums used to be full of teachers who used GMAT Club and Beat The GMAT to share their expertise and to help test takers improve. Now GMAT Club is full of marketers, making increasingly outlandish claims, claims that are transparently misleading if you scrutinize them at all. It really isn't fun to come to this forum any more.

IanStewart · Answer

That is black letter endorsement law. If someone endorses a product, and has an affiliation with the product, that affiliation must be disclosed. If someone, or someone's employer, has a financial relationship with another company, and that person endorses that company, the financial relationship must be disclosed. That's basic ethics (a reader has a right to know about any financial entanglements when evaluating an endorsement) and it's US law. It's not optional.

I've brought this up three separate times over the last two years with you and with GMAT Club employees and moderators, and as far as I can tell, nothing has happened: GMAT Club itself doesn't disclose its financial relationships. When your employees, interns and moderators endorse prep companies like TTP that pay you many thousands of dollars each month for sponsorship, your employees and moderators need to disclose that financial relationship. It makes no difference if someone is paid or unpaid, or if their endorsement is sincere or motivated by other concerns. If you have appointed someone to an official position, you make money from a prep company, and your appointee endorses that company, readers are entitled to have that information so they can fairly evaluate the endorsement.

PyjamaScientist · Answer

I would just add to what  AndrewN  has said above. If Egmat has done something fishy here, they ain't alone in this. I have seen other reputed prep companies go down the road of "fishing for subscribers" many times. So that's that.

Coming to Quant course by Egmat and TTP, I have used both, and though I am not a big fan of either, they both do what they claim to do. It's true that Egmat has been aggressive in its marketing, but does that make its product bad? No.

Egmat has a detailed systematic Quant course that leaves no stone unturned, perhaps it's an overkill. Similar to Manhattan Quant. TTP at the same time has good analytics, good depth to concepts, and super reachable Experts option through their chat box. Both the courses would do good if you stick by their method.

IanStewart , I agree to both the points you have raised above. And yes aggressive "marketing" does make GmatClub a not so "ideal environment" for the normal test-takers, who fall to such marketing tactics and think they can't do it themselves. But, I still request you not to give up on this forum. It needs people like you, Karishma and Andrewn.

P.S:  Dragoon088 , That really was some  007   stuff! Lol!

AndrewN · Answer

IanStewart , I did not know about this marketing shift you referred to in your post: I joined GMAT Club three years ago, when this shift may have already been underway. I have to admit, the final line of your first post resonated with me: I find it sad that a tutor with your expertise and experience would feel crowded out. On a personal level, I, too, have experienced struggles with the site more recently, but that is probably my own fault. It is simply getting harder to avoid the spotlight when I make an effort to respond to mentions (if I am not mentioned alongside others who may have already responded) and also write thoughtful responses to general queries and produce full question analyses. Engaging with the site is not the same as it used to be. Regarding your second post, I, like most others who use the site (I imagine), am ignorant of copyright law. But I do promote ethical behavior, and I agree with your points. The law is the law.

PyjamaScientist , thank you for taking the time to offer a fair evaluation of both platforms as someone who has used each and earned a respectable exam score. I agree with your points about independent tutors offering valuable contributions to the site, and most definitely about  Dragoon088  doing due diligence to uncover the scheme.

- Andrew

IanStewart · Answer

This is a minor thing in the grand scheme, but when I wrote my post, I did not include a link to TTP's website. I am not including a link as I write this post either, but GMAT Club is automatically editing my writing so it appears I am directing people to their website. I would never do that, and it's wrong that my writing is edited so it appears I've written things I would never write. I can't even edit my posts to remove the links.

bb · Answer

Wow. Lots of posts today! Just wanted to let you know I have been following this thread and as always, welcome the open discussion. A few comments: 1) I agree, any affiliation absolutely should be disclosed and I am always very disappointed if anyone on our site is not fully transparent. 2) My team and I are always trying to improve the site for the community and appreciate constructive input. AndrewN , I think formalizing an “ethics committee” is a great idea, and I will start the process to create a small committee independent, long-time users that have demonstrated their commitment and value to the GMAT Club community. I would love for you to be a part of it. 3) I will personally talk with E-GMAT and TTP as well, and send a note to all of our participating GMAT Prep companies to ensure everyone is crystal clear on the requirement to disclose all affiliations on a go forward basis. Also, just a quick comment regarding any perceived bias around GMAT Club's advertising model. It is a pretty simple model - we sell banner/advertising space at a flat fee to GMAT Prep companies, business schools, consultants, google, and other banner companies. GMAT Club purposefully does not engage in any profit sharing or commissions. We do not make money from sales of courses or a user clicking a link. We do not change or delete our content (posts, reviews, etc) based upon our advertisers and am hopeful that I have demonstrated on many occasion our core principle of being fully independent and non-biased because without that there is no point in running the site. ----------------------------------- Thinking about it, some good old history flashed back - I think it could be interesting to some of the newer members who joined after 2010

From the site’s inception, my focus has been to host an active community helping those folks going through the arduous MBA journey (at least it was arduous for me when I went through it). For many years, I funded this community and tech costs in terms of both time and money. I remember my wife waking up at 2 AM and telling me to go to bed because I was still awake, confused why I am doing it. I had a job and a career that I was fully focused on and I was not really active either. Sometimes weeks would go by between my visits. GMAT Club was very different in the early years (2002 - 2009) and experts were not welcome by the way. Any GMAT prep company expert who wanted to contribute would promptly get a warning and potentially deactivated. Probably not the smartest rule and policy but that was our approach. This was also the time when a competitor sprung up and it was clear we were not able to keep up with them in terms of investment and development and the number of experts they were able to attract (while we were banning them). This was a decision point. Do we continue as before on the same course of a decline or do we need to change? Did not take a genius to realize that to keep this site operating, we needed to create some type of ongoing source of funding via advertising that would allow us to be competitive. The only model that made sense was the model of a commercial real-estate company - you rent out space to a variety of tenants at a flat fee and you may have Microsoft on the first floor, WSJ on the second, and Tesla on the third. Does the landlord get paid when a tenant makes a sale? No, and neither do we. I am pretty proud of what GMAT Club does and where it is today. Anyway, I don't claim perfection or that I have all the answers and always welcome suggestions to improve or other opinions (even if I disagree). By the way, the suggestion with the ethics committee is really good - I feel it will make GMAT Club more streamlined and my life easier, allowing me to focus on helping with GMAT/MBA questions which is what I enjoy doing most of the time... this took too long to type up. Thank you for your support and input everyone!

IanStewart · Answer

Because a lot of people will take the above post at face value, and because it seems important to me that a discussion of ethics and honesty actually be honest, I want to clarify a few things.

This is not true. When you invited me to join the GMAT Club Tutor Directory (which I did not do), you explained that GMAT Club was taking a percentage of any tutoring sales made through the directory. I've seen GMAT Club moderators direct test takers to your tutor listing without disclosing that GMAT Club takes a cut. The page title in Google search results says, in part, "Find Best Tutors" even though I don't think you have any reason to think you've compiled a list of the "best" tutors, only ones willing to give you a percentage. All of this is obviously problematic.

I should point out three things:

• I was invited to join the Directory years ago, and perhaps it works differently now, though I just checked and anyone purchasing through the directory needs to make their payment to GMAT Club, not to the individual Tutor. So I suspect it still works the same way, though I can't be sure

• I don't want anyone to think worse of tutors listed there, because I know at least some of them are good tutors, and I know at least one was given a free listing (and didn't even know some listings were not free).

• And this has been going on, if things still work as they used to, for years, and this is the first time I've brought it up, because in the big picture, it's a small issue, and I don't want to spend even this much time on small issues. But I do want a more general discussion about transparency to be transparent, so it felt important to point this out.

I'm all for initiatives to make the GMAT field more honest and more ethical. But in two different private messages to you a year ago, I asked that we open up a conversation about integrity issues in the GMAT field, and you ignored the suggestion both times. I know I'm not the only Expert here who has, over the last many months, raised issues with you (and in my case, not even the most significant issues), in private and in public, and nothing has happened. So while it's better late than never, I wouldn't want readers to think these issues are new, or have only now just been brought to your attention. These are longstanding issues, and some of us have been waiting for years for anything to be done about them.

I'd add that appointing your own "ethics committee" is a bit like a chemical company appointing its own pollution monitor, and you really shouldn't need a committee to point out what is ethical and what is not. A proper ethics committee would be independent (no one involved should have any business relationship with GMAT Club), would consist of people (whether you agree with them or not) who have a low opinion of GMAT Club's conformity to ethical principles, should be funded (honest people shouldn't be expected to donate their time to police the dishonest people who are profiting from their dishonesty) and should be empowered to do more than simply make recommendations.

bb · Answer

Thank you everyone who has contributed and submitted suggestions how to make GMAT Club better. At this very strange post-pandemic time when the country is divided, there is a war in Europe, and inflation touching double-digits, the common approach seems to attack, destroy, and attempt to inflict as much damage as possible. The harsh rhetoric on all social media outlets and the scary divide of one sided opinions without focus on solutions and working together is scary and saddening

With that backdrop, for years tried my best to provide a valuable space for those going through the difficult and arduous task of obtaining an MBA and I appreciate everyone who joined along the way. I truly welcome all constructive and solution-oriented comments and suggestions. Like the larger forums, chat and social media sites (Reddit, Twitter, etc) GMAT Club’s is constantly trying to improve and adapt our user and advertiser policies for the best of our community. I would like to request and encourage you to post recommendations about how you feel GMAT Club might integrate any of the more established sites policy decisions and how it might be done in best practices for GMAT Club. I feel if we can follow a good established process, it will be helpful.

I also would like to encourage our users to rise above the fray and look to providing positive solutions vs taking potshots with limping analogies and facts - that only distracts and benefits few. (e.g. Tutor directory is the opposite of the discussion of receiving payments, and chemical compliance is a regulatory issue which ethics board is not. If there are any concerns, suggestions, or issues, please feel free to bring them here in the open or direct via email to support@gmatclub.com). However, If there is a good best practice that anyone knows of, please share it. For example, what does twitter or LinkedIn or Reddit use for example? It's been harder to find than I personally expected. Perhaps someone works for a company that has a successful ethics board/committee.

I appreciate the suggestion of the ethics committee and other suggestions I have received over the PM about ideas for new policies. Someone suggested introducing an honor code that we would roll out to all of the experts on GMAT Club and I am currently looking into putting one together.

P.S. I am splitting off this conversation to get rid of the baggage of the initial topic linked to here. I have had recent calls with the related advertising partners to understand what has transpired and this lapse of judgement on their site. I have made it very clear this is unacceptable behavior and they have been very regretful of the issue. They apologized and felt that while the situation was very avoidable, the shame was deserved and did not try to wiggle out which I appreciate. I hope some new policies and ethics code that are arise from our great community and help deter anyone else from trying to engage in questionable behavior and with so much going on in the world, there is no reason GMAT Club can’t be better and prevent some of the craziness from spilling into its pages.

Thank you,
BB.

AjiteshArun · Answer

I'm sure there's no need to, however indirectly, equate the concerns being raised here with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

I think that you mean what you say here, and I'll PM my suggestions (if I have any) to you. In the meantime, I back the very first recommendation in this thread:

I'm not a lawyer, but beyond the fact that this may be legally required, it's just the right thing to do, and in the best interests of forum members.

I remember coming across a statement by a test prep company representative that in his opinion, all the people who bought his company's course had to do to get a 700+ score was to do his company's course well. I'm sure that any test taker would recognise such a statement for what it is: advertising. However, it is much harder to do that when the source is someone we'd normally expect to be unbiased. A similarly hyperbolic claim, just from a different source, could be viewed differently.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all GMAT club agents do this, or that they do this all the time. AndrewN's recommendation is something I consider good practice, and, generally on the internet, I see many companies and individuals prominently disclose any financial ties between them and the subject(s) of their posts.

bb · Answer

Hello. I am sorry for being silent. This does not mean nothing was being done and actually a number of people have been involved in thinking about the concept and quite a bit of of work done about it. I have been amazed how challenging this concept is - just look at FB and Twitter, which Twitter has just disbanded its oversight board after the latest acquisition.

Anyway, I wanted to let everyone know that we have successfully formed a content oversight committee and it has had its first meeting. We are taking small steps and I am not expecting that we can outdo FB and their $100M investment but I am hoping our modest attempt will have positive results even if it is on our scale. I would suggest to have modest and conservative expectations since again, if you consider the bar set by FB and Twitter, those are very controversial results.

Just a quick update here. I do not have concrete items to share yet but i wanted to update everyone about the effort. The committee will be working on tacking issues such as coming up with the code of conduct for experts, evaluating current rules for users, and coming up with policies and standards for moderators. As we have these steps completed, I will be publishing them on GMAT Club and linking here for reference.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and support!
(and patience)
-BB

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