My average is terrible in comparison to others', however, my school has extremely low class averages and incredibly hard-working people (coming in from high school, the programs took less than 1 in 10 applicants). We're talking Chinese from Hong Kong who study 15 hours a day, no joke. Anyways, this results in class averages that are usually 60-64%, with 1/5 of the class getting 80+, 1/5 getting 60-70, then the rest <= 60, with about 15-20% failing each class. There is no such thing as a bell curve, and only 1 in 3 graduate the program. Anyways my overall average is 67-68%, which is actually normal for my school. I usually beat the class average in most of my classes and in some a bit below, and I usually just taught myself everything the night before (I rarely went to class). I did great first year-- and I took 3rd year level math classes and 2nd/3rd year electives (in my first year), all the while getting straight A's. However, 2nd year was decent, 3rd/4th year were really bad, and 5th year was a bit better, which is normal for my school. I'm wondering how I can explain this to the Adcom? Would they realize that a 59% in one class in my program would really be an A- at another school? Like my UG transcript is ugly, but I did an impossible program and still graduated with Honours. I'm not sure how to portray this or whether this would be a big deal (I'm very intelligent and can learn anything with ease). Thanks

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How do Adcoms view a super low GPA?

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aceman626

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05 Nov 2007, 19:40

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gmatclb

Is Canada really an underepresented country?

That's a shocker.

yeah i know right? Maybe Burundi, but def not Canada.

Plus i don't think Adcoms are that specific enough to place people in country quotas, they're not immigration officers...i think its more of region, ie Western Europe, South Asia, East Asia, Africa, Middle East, Latin America, etc. etc. They don't have to get people from a particular country, just a few from each region.

I think it also has to do with ethnicity+background (ie where you grew up) as well.

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06 Nov 2007, 11:55

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jjanders

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Tell me about it.... Bonjour Belle Fille...

Well I don't know. If I was on the Adcom and I saw a kid with a

61 Algebraic Graph Theory

I'd view that more favourably than

82 Casual Shakespearen BS

There are people who apply from my school with high grades, but they're Asians (hong kong, Taiwan, Mainland), who speak 0 english and do nothing outside of school (the only way you can get a decent average at my school). So I'm not THAT worried (I have languages, extracurrics, will have great essays, high GMAT, a niche market (startups vs IB/Consulting like everyone else wants), lots of startup experience, worked at IBank).

Oh another thing is, even though my overall is low, my first year was very good.... would that help at all?

my term averages are

87 83 66 47 60 59 72 68 59

I boosted it a bit towards the end... last term I failed one... total 4 fails (we're allowed to have up to 6 and graduate.... they expect you to fail about 5).

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06 Nov 2007, 11:58

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PS - No term averages. No rankings.

Engineering at my school does that, but not the Math faculty. And they never publish the final class grade list either, so you never knew how badly everyone got raped.

Oh in like Linear Algebra, Calc 1/2/3, Algebra etc I have all 70/80's, if that's what they're looking for....

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06 Nov 2007, 13:40

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jjanders

Montreal.....hottest women ever.

4 fails?

You're digging a deeper hole. I don't know how you can explain to the adcomm how your school expects its students to fail 5 classes.

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06 Nov 2007, 13:50

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Ok here's the thing that frustrates me.

Most people go to lovey-dovey schools were A's are handed out like candy, and half the class gets a B+ or better. Nobody ever fails, and everybody has a super high GPA without putting in much effort. Your school does not really bother with a fail count as most people very rarely fail classes.

Welcome to my school, where everyone gets absolutely raped. We all came in with 95-99% high school averages, beat out 10-20 other applicants for our spot, etc. All very, very intelligent people. Then we do our assignments, go the classes, learn all the material, and go write our very first midterm, everything goes great! Then we first get our taste of.... rapage. We knew everything yet get 41%, 57%, 61%, 39%, etc. No bell curve for you! Then the rapage never stops, and your goal in life goes from getting good grades to doing anything you absolutely can to getting out of that school and ending the nightmare that is my school. Like I said most fail out, only 1/3 graduate.

But yeah it just really frustrates me when people go "omg! that's impossible, how can a school give out grades that crappy?" well that's my school. There are a few other schools like that too, but I know mine is notorious for not bell curving and giving out the lowest possible marks. But still, we have Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, Lehman Brothers, McKinsey, etc hire from our undergraduate program. Marks really don't mean sh*t at my school. All that matters is that you get the piece of paper. Also all you need is a 60% average and you can fail up to 6 classes and still get an honours degree (which is 80%+ and 1-2 fails at most other schools).

mNeo

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06 Nov 2007, 14:04

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If your school is so selective and so highly respected, then B-schools would know about the "give crappy grades to all" philosophy of your school. If the grades didn't stop Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley & McKinsey to recruit people from your school, then grades won't matter so much to the B-schools too.

kwam

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Updated on: 06 Nov 2007, 14:26

Originally posted by kwam on 06 Nov 2007, 14:23.
Last edited by kwam on 06 Nov 2007, 14:26, edited 1 time in total.

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I agree with mNeo.

In my Engineering School from Brazil the system is a 0 to 10 grade. In Brazil some schools have the minimum grade to pass is 5 and others have 7, you simply cannot compare them directly, to give you the picture, 7 in my school was a very good grade for a single course, by graduating with 7 one would be among the top 20% of the whole school.

Another thing, the average length to graduate in my school is around 6,5 years, although the program has 5 as standard, really I saw that my teachers had pleasure to give us bad grades, something almost sexual, REALLY. I have some friends who took 7 years to graduate and still got into very good B-school, because they know how things work there. On the other hand, the school just across the street uses to give 9 and 10 to everybody, and the B-Schools also know that.

I think you're overreacting. Have you already talked to people from your school? See if they provide your ranking - I'm quite sure they do so.

And true if GS, Microsoft and other companies usually hire your folks I wouldn't be that worried, B-schools would follow the same pattern...

hbs.aspirant

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Updated on: 06 Nov 2007, 14:35

Originally posted by hbs.aspirant on 06 Nov 2007, 14:26.
Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 06 Nov 2007, 14:35, edited 2 times in total.

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StartupAddict

Well I don't know. If I was on the Adcom and I saw a kid with a

61 Algebraic Graph Theory

I'd view that more favourably than

82 Casual Shakespearen BS

StartupAddict

but they're Asians (hong kong, Taiwan, Mainland), who speak 0 english and do nothing outside of school

Apparently you have failed to get educated and didn't even realize. if I am on adcom, i would look for an explanation of attitude in your optional essay.

gmatclb

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06 Nov 2007, 14:26

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I'm not trying to pick on you.

I"m just saying that it may not be in your best interest to explain your fails by saying your school expects 6 fails out of its students.

Just give them your class rank and let it be. 2-3 sentences about it and that's it. All it takes is one person from your school with high marks to overshadow your claims.

On the bright side, your undergrad marks are not calculated into the school's average. At least the 4-5 schools I'm interested in.

BTW, this is from someone who got a failed class too. I didn't make an excuse. I owned up to it and said I slacked off. (I put it more elegantly)

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06 Nov 2007, 14:44

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StartupAddict, I believe you may be worrying a bit too much. I would just explain to them regarding the competitiveness of your school in the optional essay/area and let it be that. If it's a very respected school, the adcoms would have heard of it and will know how to deal with the grades from that school.

As for your generalization of "lovey-dovey" schools that rarely fail people, I have to disagree. Berkeley's grading is quite harsh, and 50% of the engineering freshmen flunk out or drop out after getting C's or worse after the first year. In humanities and sciences it ain't much better, with lots of C's and D's giving out by professors all the time.

Even at a school like Stanford, which has a reputation for getting B+'s and higher, many of the undergrad I've known have gotten C's and D's in their classes. Albeit, they do get slightly "inflated" grades than Cal, haha :wink:

I would try to minimize your generalizations based on schools, race, or countries if possible.

aceman626

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06 Nov 2007, 20:40

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Agree completely with Kryzak. There are schools like Berkeley, MIT, etc in the states that are absolute killers in grading. In addition, they also have the best of the best students from aroudn the world, and these geniuses do get high grades despite it being tough. (side note to Kryzak, I think Stanford's grade inflation is as bad as it gets...i think it's 0.5 GPA higher than Cal.)

To StartupAddict What it comes down to is this. If there are people in your school who get A's (or equivalent) then, you don't really have any excuse. In your school, you should've been the top 10-15% of your class, if you're not, then it it's nobody's fault but yours. What is your school? you haven't indicated that info yet. Whatever it is, I doubt its harder than Berkeley, MIT, Peking Uni, IIT, Oxford, etc and other top international schools.

Hey, there's nothing shameful about getting a mediocre grade, however, if you come across as making excuses, Adcoms will not like it. Just accept your low GPA, and show how you demonstrate academic potential, etc etc, and with your strong work experience you can probably get in somewhere decent for MBA.

clobo

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06 Nov 2007, 20:51

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Okay! I have been reading StartupAddict's posts and I have to say I am a little irritated. I am from Canada as well and attended the University of Waterloo. From the descriptions in the posts, StartupAddict seems to be from the same school. Hopefully, none of you guys have developed a bad impression of Canadians or University of Waterloo graduates. Our programs are indeed demanding, but not unlike any of the other programs at the top schools around the world. A good GPA is attainable with some application, perseverance, and humility. More importantly, it is not just one race of people that get good grades and it is definitely not because they study for 15 hours/day. There are some genuinely intelligent people in the world and profiles of some people on this forum reinforces my viewpoint. I wish all of you the best and hop to attend business school with some of you.

gmatclb

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06 Nov 2007, 20:55

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BTW, change your avatar.

That guy looks creepy.

kryzak

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06 Nov 2007, 21:24

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most of the 4.0 students I know at Cal and Stanford were NOT Chinese/Hong Kong people who have no life and study for 15 hours a day. They were Americans, presidents of students societies, intramural sports players, etc... Probably some of the most well rounded people I know.

Though there is some truth in GRADUATE school, where the foreign students (many from China and India) often got the top grades in each of the graduate classes. I don't know how they do it, but they're good!

TimeSquareDesi

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06 Nov 2007, 21:31

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gmatclb

BTW, change your avatar.

That guy looks creepy.

LOL - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison

Quote:

Lawrence Joseph Ellison (born August 17, 1944) is the co-founder and CEO of Oracle Corporation, a major database software company.

dabots

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06 Nov 2007, 21:33

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TimeSquareDesi

gmatclb

BTW, change your avatar.

That guy looks creepy.

LOL - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison

Quote:

Lawrence Joseph Ellison (born August 17, 1944) is the co-founder and CEO of Oracle Corporation, a major database software company.

larry ellison is creepy

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06 Nov 2007, 21:36

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-and 'rich.' Please include 'rich' when talking about Mr. Ellison :lol:

Quote:

Forbes listed Ellison's 2005 net worth as $18.4 billion

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06 Nov 2007, 21:38

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kryzak

Though there is some truth in GRADUATE school, where the foreign students (many from China and India) often got the top grades in each of the graduate classes. I don't know how they do it, but they're good!

Kryzak,
One reason for this might be that foreign students have a lot more to lose if they don't do well. Many of them are in the U.S on scholarships and might have to return if they don't maintain their grades.

kryzak

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06 Nov 2007, 22:11

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very true clobo. That makes sense. I just remember some killer-hard midterms/finals that I had NO CLUE how to do (and of course, bombed), and a few people in the class always got 100% on those tests. Then again, these people competed against the millions/billions of people from their countries to come here for graduate school, and are fighting to change their (and their family's) lives. I definitely respect that!