Investment Banking and out of my league?

Question

I'd appreciate it if those of you who know the IB recruiting process could offer some advice.

When first applying to school, I thought for sure I wanted to stay in consulting. However, after teaching myself a lot about the markets and how they function, IB has become very intriguing. I also do a lot of financial work in my current consulting job and enjoy that part the most.

The issue I'm having is that I have a bad profile for IB recruiting... I'm 24, 690 GMAT (Q42, V42 - not evenly split at all percentage wise...), and had a good gpa but not from a big-name school. What I have going for me is I was in the top 2% of my engineering class (IT degree wasn't very math intensive though) and I'll be attending NYU so I can schmooze like crazy at the local banks.

Is it somewhat true about the 730+ GMAT minimum and stuff like that? I don't expect a shot at Goldman or anything, and do realize the competition especially in these market conditions, but I feel there has to be some chance at the other firms. Is working for one of the boutique firms and then moving up to bulge bracket a possibility? Is there anything you recommend that I could do now to improve my odds (I've sold all the GMAT books and really, really, really, really would not like to take it again)?

maverick2011 · Answer

I'm glad you posted this. I am in a similar position in that I am trying to change careers from mechanical engineering to investment banking. My GMAT was 700 with a Q48/V38 split. Hopefully, somebody with actual IB recruiting experience will post some useful info.

89nk · Answer

Wow, is it really that hard to change careers? I am also an engineer, and wanting to get into a Finance sector.

NYU Stern is a really good business school. I would think that most would be able to get into a field of their interest. If not, I feel like I am going to face the same troubles in the future.

lepium · Answer

I think the first, and most important, question you need to be answering convincingly (to a recruiter, not just to yourself) is "why I-banking?" If you deal effectively with that, you would have probably done enough research to answer your own questions.

About your more specific GMAT question I'll hand it over to the I-bankers in the forum, although not without hinting first that you should be OK with a 690 as long as your list of desired employers is broad enough.

L.

ryguy904 · Answer

Sounds like this means if you want a job at Bear Stearns, 690 is OK, but for Goldman or JPM, no.

Correct?

lepium · Answer

I seem to have heard that Bear Stearns is JPM, now, isn't it? 
News references aside, I haven't a clue of perceived hierarchy of banks, what I'm saying is that I have friends who have landed IB jobs with 690s. Those friends, targetted about 10+ banks; as everyone else in the IB job search did. All I'm saying is that I know of people who have done it, although too much focus could be bad if you happen to apply to some bank which actually cares too much about GMAT.

L.

ryguy904 · Answer

Gotcha - Appreciate the clarification

togafoot · Answer

I have friends who landed jobs at IBs who haven`t even got an MBA!.

1 friend got an average GMAT (low 600`s) was in mechanical engineering, was doing a part-time MBA and got an associate position in Lehman. He hasn`t even finished his part-time MBA yet. (McGill part time in Tokyo) and he is in his mid-30`s.

Almost everything you`re told that is a showstopper in getting into IB, yet he`s managed it.

maverick2011 · Answer

It took awhile, but I finally found a couple interesting threads on this topic: 108-t54988 108-t52705

riverripper · Answer

There are so many banks out there, just like consulting firms...if you want a job in the industry bad enough and market your skills and education very well you will probably find one. You may not get your first choice and you may have to settle for a lesser known but out of a top school you will find a job. Just dont expect to get offers from every bulge bracket.

pelihu · Answer

I agree with the basic ideas set forth by Lepium and RR. If you want "a job in IB" then as a student at NYU you will have a shot. There are about 20 fairly big IBs and dozens more smaller IBs. If your goal is to get into one of the bulge bracket banks (8-10 depending on how you look at it) or one of the major mono-line IBs (just 4 now Goldman, Morgan, Merrill and Lehman) then the task becomes harder and each aspect of your profile must be stronger. Kind of like business school applications I guess.

Regarding togafoot's friend; he's right that the profile is unusual. I will say that I didn't notice age to be a factor in recruiting. Career changers must prove that they are really interested in the job (as Lepium pointed out) and that they can handle the technical aspect of the job (engineer's have a better chance of this than humanities majors). Also, recruiting standards vary greatly among regions. I know that this past year, firms were having a tough time filling jobs in Asia, and I imagine that these jobs were easier to land. Of course, you need to be the right person for the job - for example many firms were looking to fill positions in china, but were only considering people fluent in both English and Chinese. That really thins the field. Another consideration is that firms don't all have uniform reputations worldwide - and therefor their hiring standards could vary. Our perceptions of how difficult an IB job is to land is pretty much based their relative standings in NY.

togafoot · Answer

sounds about right... Here are 3 'case' studies ( my friends in IB)

Guy 1) the aforementioned PT MBA guy - he has a doctorate in Mechanical engineering and CFA I. Japanese isn't hot (as bad as mine).. around 36 years old

Guy 2) Took GMAT scored in 500's, decided not to do an MBA. Was already working in an IB (Merrill) in the IT department, switched to an analyst position, then applied to Goldman for an Associate position and got it. Speaks 5 languages (Cantonese, Japanese, Vietnamese, French and English).. around 31 years old

Guy 3) Japanese guy, was already working in IB (UBS) in the IT department. around 29 years old. Took the Japanese equivalent of the CMA, and got a job in a boutique IB. (Speaks English with an American accent).

I actually play football with a bunch of Finance recruiters and some everyweek, so chat to them every so often about what their clients are after. Oone thing they said to me was that they tend to reject anyone who has had no exposure to Japan... language is not an issue in IB within Japan, but cultural experience is.

loom · Answer

Would you consider M&A advisory work at a consulting firm like Deloitte Financial Advisory LLP, Duff & Phelps, or KPMG? You already have consulting experience, and the work is somewhat similar.

jsnooky33 · Answer

Hmmm... I guess I don't know much about it. Sounds interesting though.

terp26 · Answer

Anyone know anyone who retook the GMAT during business school to get a higher score to be more competitive at i-banks and consulting companies?

Bdevil25 · Answer

I know a guy who retook the GMAT after getting admitted because he wanted to break the 700 barrier. I think he's targeting a consulting job.

So it  does  happen...

3underscore · Answer

I honestly think everyone obsesses way too much about the GMAT. Sure, some banks ask for it, but it doesn't necessarily mean they pick by it. Winning a recruiter over and the way you pitch yourself is most important - obviously, a higher GMAT score never hurt anyone.

knowshonmoreno · Answer

Honest question for those interested in I-banking....

How do yall project to firms a desire to get into this field that doesn't involve simply wanting the money that goes with being an I-banker, or the opportunities to get into something else later in an effort to make more money?

Be it from friends who did GS analyst programs (and hated it) or from books like "Monkey Business" (which I realize are dramatized), I can't think of any reason outside of being a greedy sob to go into this field (no offense to anyone of course).

I want to get rich as much as the next guy, but in my opinion, IB is the world's most reputable and sophisticated pyramid scheme/sweat shop...

rhyme · Answer

From "outside looking in".... GSB IB recruiting seemed to boil down to:

1. Did you go to every single event they had, never show up late, always wear a suit and never leave early?
2. Did you manage not to make an ass of yourself at those events?
3. Are you going to cry like a schoolgirl when they toss out a semi-technical question about say, a yield curve or something like that?
4. Were you successful in not pissing off any partners? 
5. Do you seem competent and driven? 
6. Can you convincingly explain why you want IB? (and no, $ isn't an answer)

From where I was standing, it looked like half the group got weeded out by the end of Question 6. Admittedly though, I didnt recruit for IB.

89nk · Answer

Not sure if rhyme is going to see this, but what is all included in IB?

Is M&A part of IB?

Also, your list seems very....unattractive. I hope you are being somewhat sarcastic. I really am driven to apply myself, but if that is the sort of criteria (besides #6) I will be judged upon, I am a little disappointed.

I mean it is important to mingle to see if your a good fit with the company, but I just don't want to be a dog with a leash, running around kissing butt and putting on a fake mask just to get an interview to be legitimate.

Any advice?

Investment Banking and out of my league?

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