JD/MBA opinions

Question

Hey everyone,
I have been wrestling with the idea of applying for several different JD/MBA programs (instead of MBA programs by themselves) and am wondering if anyone has some insights for me. I would like a small business/entrepreneurship focus to my education and think that the addition of the JD would be valuable in this setting. I know that Northwestern as well as a few other schools offer a three year JD/MBA and would be interested in any insights there as well. In summary, any info regarding the overall JD/MBA experience, the costs vs. benefits, the applicability in the business(especially entrepreneurial), etc. would be greatly appreciated. BTW I just got a 740 on my GMAT, any insights on the LSAT compared to the GMAT?

swbluedevil · Answer

I'll play Devil's Advocate... how would a JD add value for a small business/entrepreneurship focus?

apbaxter · Answer

Thanks for playing "blue devil's" advocate. I am currently president of a small company (less than 15 employees). Many times when reviewing contracts, NDAs, or planning strategies (e.g. strategic partnerships, raising capital) I have thought that a law degree would be very useful. Although, I don't see myself ever practicing law in the future.

Skitalets · Answer

Keep in mind that adding the JD usually adds two years to the program, unless you do one of the handful of 3 year programs (which usually require formal coursework in business prior to the program). Can you extract $60-100K in value out of that extra year or two? Could you accomplish the same goals by taking a couple electives instead, like business law?

Any joint degree is a tough thing to make work out in reality. I'm sure they're cash cows for schools, but my experience is that they are rarely worth it for the students. I think the JD/MBA does offer an edge for some students who want to go into corporate law, or for law students who want to go into strategy consulting or PE/VC, but I doubt it's as useful in a small business context.

nanodearokane · Answer

I'm studying for the LSAT right now (after having scored a 770 on the GMAT); my sense is that the LSAT will require more work put in up front in terms of getting to know the question types and what the test is looking for. Essentially, if you can read or think logically, you can do well on the verbal part of the GMAT, whereas the LSAT really favors mechanical and literal adherence to certain very circumscribed methods of reasoning.

I wouldn't say that the test is necessarily more difficult--I think that it's probably easier to go from a 177 to a 179 on the LSAT than it is to go from a 770 to a 790 on the GMAT. Similarly, I think that there's much more variability in the LSAT score than there is in the GMAT, due to the nature of the test--one test could be curved such that missing 3 questions will get you a 177; a different administration could be curved such that you can miss 6 questions. Since that's the case, it's eminently possible to get a 178 one day and a 171 the next, which would have flabbergasted me on the GMAT.

The one other thing to keep in mind is that the LSAT can be more tightly timed than the GMAT. With the GMAT, due to the computer adaptive nature of the test, you generally won't finish with 20 minutes left in a section, but you also won't finish with 5 seconds left. For the LSAT, until you get EXTREMELY familiar with the questions and the section types, you will almost always be struggling to finish. Given the relatively small number of questions you can miss to get a good score, in my opinion time management on the LSAT is a far more important consideration than on the GMAT.

apbaxter · Answer

Thanks for the insight into the LSAT Nano. Can I ask what your reason for taking both tests is and if you have any insight on the JD/MBA part of my question.

nanodearokane · Answer

Um, well, I've got a background in consulting (working in M&A, primarily). I'm not yet sure whether I'm planning on doing a JD, an MBA, or both, yet, but I've gotten the sense that since I want to continue working in transactions (more in the structuring of deals than in the strategizing), a) there's a lot of value that can be added by having a legal (or financial) education/experience in addition to one's primary metier in terms of actual transactional work, b) having both skill sets can open doors that otherwise wouldn't be open, and c) having both will allow me to move (osmotically, perhaps) between the business side and the legal side of transactional work. I think that the third is probably the most important to me, not inasmuch as I want to keep my options open, but more in that I don't think that I want to be too exclusive in terms of what I do.

Please do keep in mind that I haven't decided that I'm going to do a JD/MBA (or even completely reasoned out the various things i need to keep in mind), so there's a significant likelihood that someone could (rightly) disagree with what I've said above.

On the more personal side, I think that I'm attracted to the idea of law school because it resonates somewhat better with my educational background and interests (very liberal arts) than B-school; similarly, I think that my academic performance (and, god willing, standardized test scores) will make me a more compelling applicant to L-school than B-school. (This actually brings up another point that I should have addressed earlier: law school is MUCH more quantitatively driven than B-school--the LSAT alone accounts for 50-60% of your chance of admission. That said, if there's numeric parity between my LSAT score and GMAT score, I'll get a whole lot more mileage out of the LSAT than the GMAT).

NorthQuebec · Answer

Hi,

I have taken the LSAT and scored in a 170+. So far I feel the LSAT is more intense than the GMAT as the previous poster had indicated. But then again I haven't taken a full length GMAT yet, so I don't know about having 20mins left on a section.

To put it simply the JD/MBA merit has been a big debate, I have seen people who succeed in with it and others who don't make much out of it. THE MOST IMPORANT thing about a JD/MBA is that you need to get it from a brand school. Law schools are huge snobs when it comes to rankings and the recruiters extremely ranking obessive. One note Northwestern Law will accept a GMAT for the JD/MBA program and their program is 3 years instead of 4. I think UPenn also offers a 3 year program.

Now for your purposes specifically I don't know how a JD/MBA would help exactly, but thats cause I'm ignorant in what your field of interest.

NorthQuebec · Answer

Nano what do you mean by that last statment?

Also Nano ... how much % emphasis do you think Bschools would put on your GMAT for admissions?

mba12tech · Answer

After hearing about Northwestern's 3-year JD/MBA, I became curious about doing the two degrees. My thoughts were along the same lines: "oh it'd be great to have the legal background ..." etc., etc.. In the end, I determined that it'd be a waste of time and money for me, and if your mindset is similar in that a JD would be "nice to have", then it's probably not for you either. I agree with skitalets in that you'd have to have a very specific goal for the JD/MBA to be worth it.

Check out Alex Chu's take on the JD/MBA:
https://forums.businessweek.com/n/pfx/fo ... w-bschools

labomba · Answer

NW JD/MBA admit here...I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you may have, but to address a few: 1) For me, the LSAT was significantly harder than the GMAT, and I think it requires a lot more practice and preparation than the GMAT. Then again, I'm also more of a math-minded person, and I took the GMAT closer to my college days when my mind was fresh (not old and senile like now

). I did take both, but my LSAT score was so embarrassingly low I did not submit it. It really does depend on the person and their own talents/preparations. 2) Finances is a big concern; these programs are expensive. If you're really concerned about debt, it becomes a bigger concern. For me, the educational experience of both a JD and MBA, and the expected post-grad income (shaky in this economy, I know, but hopefully will be better when we graduate) overcome the debt question. Also, keep in mind that with these two degrees you have two very lucrative job markets open to you, unlike traditional MBA candidates. 3) People love to give opinions about whether a JD/MBA is "worth" it, and usually these opinions are very strong. I'm not really sure why this is the case. It's always a mixed bag, and I would take any admissions consultants' opinion with a grain of salt. (Think about it: if they start advocating JD/MBA programs, they then have to be prepared to advise on JD/MBA programs, which they're probably not qualified to do. Keep in mind most programs are not very integrated and require separate applications to the business and law schools, whose admission processes are VERY different.) Likewise, some JD students and MBA students feel intimidated by those with both degrees and seek to discredit it. Don't listen to these people either. In industry, you will find strong proponents of the two degrees as well as opponents, but it's all up to you on how you portray yourself and your reasoning for the degree. Personally, I've found a lot more supporters and I do think that the dual degree is becoming more and more important in today's world. In the end, it's about what you want to do post-school and why. I think the JD/MBA is equally lucrative for both business-minded and law-minded people. The big consulting firms, especially McK, love JD/MBAs, and the degree will at least earn you a second glance out of the pile of resumes from top schools. On the flip side, you'll find that as you progress up the ladder in the major law firms, many partners will have MBAs. Firm life, at the end of the day, is all about bringing in business. It helps to have a MBA to do that.

Skitalets · Answer

From the business side, if you expect to work at McK, it's worth keeping in mind that that's a statistical long-shot no matter what school you go to, unless you came from strategy consulting pre-MBA. They may give a second glance at a JD/MBA who wouldn't have earned a look as an MBA, but odds are they'll still pass. M/B/B are really the only MC firms that hire significant numbers of JDs -- so you'll be spending a ton of money to look better for only three employers.

I can't recommend Alex's entry about JD/MBA enough -- and I say that as the husband of a lawyer. If you're not going to practice law, do not get a JD. It's a ton of work, it's expensive, and it does not actually teach you the law. You learn the black-letter law while studying for the bar and while working as an attorney. Most top law schools spend a lot of class time on policy issues. And as Alex says in his post, there's no such thing as a legal generalist, or even a "business lawyer". If you ask a securities attorney for advice about a contract, they'll tell you to see a contracts specialist -- because there's no way they can adequately know the current state of the law unless they practice in that area. His metaphor is apt -- it's like asking a dermatologist to work on your teeth. (Or actually, it's like getting a dental degree so you can treat your own melanoma.)

Incidentally, very few partners at law firms have MBAs. Just troll a few firm websites. You'll find some JD/MBAs there -- but the vast majority have only JDs. Even specialized degrees above the JD, like the LLM, are rare outside tax.

If you want to learn business law, save yourself tens of thousands of dollars and take a couple business law courses during your MBA. The JD/MBA is a combination for lawyers, not business people -- with very few exceptions.

labomba · Answer

Like I said, this topic always drives colorful debate. With that, I respectfully disagree. :-D

I don't want to get in the business of telling people I don't know they should or should not get a professional degree; it's a personal choice and there's lots of things to consider. So I object to your claim that JD/MBAs are only for "lawyers"; that's a dangerous and broad generalization that is simply untrue. Review the career reports; out of a class of 25 at NW, 4 or 5 get very elite business jobs. Those are pretty good odds, considering the good majority of the class goes into law following school and doesn't even apply for business jobs. JD/MBAs are in demand for a reason, in both law and business. Obviously it's not a golden ticket (nothing is), but does it help? I think so. As for consulting, people already spend a ton of money on business school alone to get into M/B/B. Stupid, maybe, but it already happens en masse. And I don't think it's particularly stupid either. Again, people get degrees for lots of reasons. Some JD/MBAs have told me that they wanted the intellectual challenge of law school. Some have said that law school teaches you how to think and write -- that's a lifelong skill that, in my mind, is worth a good amount of money and is applicable in ANY job. Some may say that's just a waste of money, but they aren't relevant. The only thing that's relevant is the applicant; they have to weigh the pros and cons and make the choice. I say this as someone who initially held many of the same views of Skitalets, but eventually came to accept other reasons for getting the JD/MBA that I didn't necessary share.

gregarious · Answer

As someone who had a passing interest in the NU three year program, I would say sharpening the intellect and rhetorical skills were what interested me, but the career considerations are what stopped me from considering the JD part. As far as the career reports go, the issue I have is that there's no way of knowing if these JD/MBAs who got the elite business jobs would have gotten them anyways if they had just gone through the normal two year MBA program. In other words, it seems hard to quantify what edge having both degrees gave them in consulting recruiting and others have pointed out that the MBA is not that useful for a lawyer starting off. I agree with labomba that there are various reasons, not necessarily rational, that people would want to have both degrees.

Are there any specific jobs available out of school that combine practicing law with traditional MBA roles?

Are there any specific jobs available out of school that combine practicing law with traditional MBA roles?

Skitalets · Answer

Look, I know a couple dozen dual-degree students who are on the other end of the experience and currently taking the bar or working. I know maybe one or two who feels the extra money was worth it. I've also heard frank feedback from a number of professors who feel like they're not a good value. You're just about to start your program, so you're understandably excited. And given that you're on the law side and (presumably) want to practice law, you really might get quite a bit out of the experience.

But generally speaking, it is not a good idea to go to law school if you don't want to practice law. There are far, far less expensive ways of learning how to write or upping your chances of working at McK. And as gregarious says, it's basically impossible to determine whether those 4-5 people who spent an extra $100k got their money's worth or not.

I think you've also lost sight of the fact that the OP gave very specific reasons for wanting a JD/MBA -- and they did not involve becoming a partner in a law firm or working in MC. Spending two extra years and a lot of extra money to become an entrepreneur is not a good decision -- entrepreneurs who go to b-school are already saddled with two years worth of debt and often have to work months out of school on no salary if they get involved with a start-up right away.

In any case, I'm not saying no one should do a JD/MBA. Clearly there are people who benefit. But I'm suggesting some serious soul searching before committing -- and I'm saying that "I'd like to learn a little about the law" is not a good reason and indicative of not enough soul searching if one gives that as a reason (as the OP did). Your response seems to be that people should dive right in, because 5 guys at Kellogg/NWU Law got jobs. I don't think that's responsible.

nanodearokane · Answer

According to Alex Chu, a really good GMAT is like being 7 feet tall and going for the NBA (he said that somewhere on bweek)--it's a really nice thing to have and coaches will take note of you, but if you suck at basketball, you aren't going to make the team no matter how tall you are. In that sense, the GMAT itself functions as something of a gatekeeper, and an extremely high score won't change the game in terms of what schools you can go to, based on your background.

The LSAT, on the other hand, will. Granted, the GPA requirements are tougher at top law schools than at top business schools, so if you're in 3.5-3.6 territory that won't do you any favors at Harvard law. However, a really high LSAT score will give you a fighting chance at a good school  even without any redeeming soft factors . You don't have to have work experience, you don't have to have leadership experience, you don't have to have major extracurriculars. All you need is a phenomenal LSAT (and a good enough GPA).

Which brings me to my last statement--by parity, I mean that if I get a 177 or better on the LSAT (which is analogous in absolute terms, if not in percentile terms, to my 770 GMAT), that will significantly alter the array of schools that I could apply to and to whom I could reasonably expect to gain admission.

nanodearokane · Answer

I don't really think that he's saying that everyone should jump right in. My sense is that he's saying that the decision to go depends on the applicant and that applicant's goals (as does going to B-School). I don't think anyone believes that a JD/MBA is some sort of panacea for lack of (career) goals, but at the same time, there may be non-professional aspects that need to be taken into consideration (all while keeping the cost-benefit analysis in mind). As I mentioned, I'm still considering doing it, and I think that the OP should seriously question whether its valuable or not for him, especially based on a realistic analysis of the direct and opportunity costs, as well as the potential benefit (even as an entrepreneur) of the extra degree(s).

riverripper · Answer

pm SkiC, he doesnt check this place anymore but he was admitted to Kellogg's JD/MBA in 2008. So he is done with his first year of law school and starts b-school this year. Might be helpful to get his insights.

NorthQuebec · Answer

Ah I get and yeah I totally agree with you, even within the 99th percentile of the LSAT there is a lot of room for distinguishing oneself.

labomba · Answer

I have no doubt that there are plenty of naysayers out there, both from JD/MBAs and professors. There's also a wide body of JD/MBAs and professors who think that they're great. Like I said, everyone seems to have an opinion on it, and I'm not saying that a JD/MBA is *absolutely* the best thing for everyone. A lot depends on the program, the schools, your goals, etc.

I in no way encouraged people to "dive right in"; on the contrary, I stressed over and over again that it's a personal decision that one needs to make after examining the pros and cons. I too agree that "I'd like to learn a little about the law" is not a good reason; it should be stronger than that. If I did not want to truly understand the law and use that knowledge in a business context, I would not pursue a JD either.

By the way, I brought up consulting because it's one business field where JD/MBAs tend to do particularly well, year after year (to counter your statement that JD/MBAs are only for JD students). To the OP, I personally think entrepreneurship is also suitable and several JD/MBAs I know have been serial entrepreneurs. I don't know the OP's situation, as each entrepreneur is different, but in general JD/MBAs can be applied to entrepreneurship. When it comes to entrepreneurship, the letters after your name matter less and the knowledge and networking you get from school matter most. With a JD/MBA, you not only have access to two huge successful networks, but you just learn so much about how business and law relate to each other.

At the end of day, the amount of "stuff" you learn in a JD/MBA makes it worth it for me -- it is an incredible academic experience that will give you an unmatched and well-rounded skill set, compared to a JD or an MBA on its own. I gain no benefit in convincing people to get JD/MBAs, so I'm not here to advocate it. I'm just saying, for me, it's what I want and what makes sense. I want to go into business eventually, and almost all (if not all) of my classmates want to as well. Saying that a JD/MBA is only for law students is simply narrow-minded and false.

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