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agold
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   20 Apr 2008, 22:39
gmatclb wrote:
terp06 wrote:
aaudetat wrote:
this makes me ill.

coming from where i do, you hear about white privilege and the privilege of wealth all the time. it wasn't until I came to grad school that i started to see it. like my friend whose dad is paying for her tuition and who had an internship in college at a fortune 100 company - because her dad was the CFO. She's a good, smart person and works her a$$ off, but you can't tell me that her birth hasn't helped her enormously. no one i grew up with knows anyone in fortune 500 companies.

our society is structured in such a way that that networks matter. that where you've been DOES make a difference in where you'll get to.

you can work your way through it - i would say that i have done so. my parents, in spite of their humble roots, always pushed me to move forward, to get out and do more than they did, more than anyone I grew up with. i found myself completely shocked that i could, if i wanted to, get a job next spring making more than any two (or even three) people in my family ever made. but even still - even with my solid (though certainly less prestigious) undergraduate degree, my success in my former work, and my top 15 mba and high gpa - i am still behind. i don't know what to wear, don't look the same when i do wear it, and don't have the money to buy it. I still sound like i'm from a small town in the midwest (even if barely).

so even my success story has thorns.

i write all this because i am tired of hearing that people need to help themselves. when i hear this, what i hear is "low-income people and the middle class need to help themselves, but everyone else can use mom's networks and daddy's pocketbook."

I probably sound bitter, and i guess I probably am. but mostly, i just wish we could all admit that the playing field ISN'T even. I don't have the answers - there probably isn't one - but could we all just admit that getting ahead is a function of both luck and bootstraps?


I can understand your pain. Overall, the world is an unfair place and we just have to make the best of it that we can. Additionally, you have to understand that most Fortune 500s and other large companies are meritocracies today. Far more than they were in the past. Just because her dad is the CFO, does not mean that your friend is going to become the CFO within 5 years. She most likely received an entry-level internship position (if she was lucky, perhaps in strategy or corporate development). What she makes of it from there is completely up to her. The reality is that a majority F500s, investment banks, consulting firms, etc. do not have a family ownership structure. The shareholders vote on the major decisions of the company and work with the board and the executive management team to carry forward the company's strategic plan. Most well-run companies that are not family owned also tend to have policies that prevent family members from reporting to each other. Your friend is an exception rather than the rule in America. Family empires are still very common in Europe and Asia, but America is a country that prizes individualism and meritocracy. Just go look at what Warren Buffett's doing with his children.

As far as getting her tuition paid for - I'm sure I'll run into that when I go to business school as well. There's always a few people like that in every class. As long as they're not flaunting it - I won't judge them for it and that's really their business. Due to the nature of business school, I'm sure that everyone in your class will know pretty quickly if someone is the daughter of James Dimon or the son of Lloyd Blankfein - but I doubt that the guy/gal will feel too great about it and I also doubt that they would desire to even speak about it, nevermind rub it in your face.

If you want inspiration - go look at the Forbes 400 list. I would conservatively estimate that at least 75% of the people on it have earned every penny.



If your father was the CFO of the company you work for, your path to the top will be a lot easier than another person. I'm not saying that you just sit on your ass and rise to the top, but having this hookup is HUGE. I'm not even going to explain the benefits. It's pretty obvious.

Rising to the top is not all about ability. Luck, savvy, and office politics are just as important.


This is simply not true unless he is a large shareholder. If a family member was getting preferential treatment at a publicly held Fortune 500, it would be frowned upon by the whole organization. They would go out of their way to make sure that the son/daughter is getting treated equally to their peers. Think about what this does for the morale of other employees - it completely destroys it and most large companies don't desire to do this.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   20 Apr 2008, 22:42
ncprasad wrote:
terp06 wrote:
Just because her dad is the CFO, does not mean that your friend is going to become the CFO within 5 years. She most likely received an entry-level internship position (if she was lucky, perhaps in strategy or corporate development). What she makes of it from there is completely up to her.


I dont believe a word of this.

Meritocracy doesnt exist...People with connections like a CFO dad etc have it easier than others.

Also, your example about Warren Buffet: you think Mr.Buffet will not save their ass if his children screw-up? Also, do you think others will even bother complaining about these guys, knowing who their father is.


Of course he would - He's leaving his chldren modest sums of money in case they ever do screw up. His motto, along with many other wealthy people's is: give them enough so that they can do whatever they want, but not enough so that they can do nothing. I'm not sure what you meant about "others bothering to complain about these guys", but America is a country where wealth does not shield you from the wrath of the law. If you do something wrong, you are going to get punished for it regardless of how wealthy you are. And you can bet on it that someone will complain about it, again regardless of how wealthy you are.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   20 Apr 2008, 22:52
I dont see how your argument about the law is relevant in the context of this discussion. The argument is not about whether you can get away with a crime. It is simply about who has more opportunities business/career wise. I still haven't seen anything that shows that connections dont matter. As aau said, I dont care if those folks have it easy, but lets just be practical and agree that connections DO matter.

When I said "others dont bother to complain", I simply meant people would think twice about getting on the bad side of Mr.Buffet's family

terp06 wrote:
Of course he would - He's leaving his chldren modest sums of money in case they ever do screw up. His motto, along with many other wealthy people's is: give them enough so that they can do whatever they want, but not enough so that they can do nothing. I'm not sure what you meant about "others bothering to complain about these guys", but America is a country where wealth does not shield you from the wrath of the law. If you do something wrong, you are going to get punished for it regardless of how wealthy you are. And you can bet on it that someone will complain about it, again regardless of how wealthy you are.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 01:43
This may relate to the "pedigree" factor that, in my opinion, most schools encourage in their applicants.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 03:58
Three things:

As others have said, all I'm saying is that connections DO matter. They DO help. These connections aren't a ticket out of working - you still gotta do your part. But how much easier is getting the job in the first place?

And I am not holding it against these people. Trust me - Duke is full of people from well-connected families, and I work with them quite nicely. The girl with the CFO for a dad? She's one of my best friends here.

As long as people do their part, I can't hold it against them that their mom's on the board. It's not their fault that mom's on the board, no more than it's my fault that my mom doesn't know anything about the subjunctive.

And a fourth: I know I started this discussion, and everyone's been super-cool so far. But let's all remember Praet's policy of no jerks (praet excluded).
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 06:54
This is a tough issue. I think connections DEFINITELY do make a difference. Should they? I guess that's the debatable issue.

IMO, I think they should. Someone worked hard to make that connection, even if it's not you or your parents. Maybe it's your grandparents, but someone worked hard to become the CFO of a company or whatever. And I think one of the reasons parents work so hard is to be able to provide for their children. So, if the hard work I put in can help my children and grandchildren get ahead in life, what's the problem.

As Aau said, you can't blame the children and in many cases you can't blame the parents. They are just trying to help their children succeed by giving them any/all advantages they can. I just hate when I see kids/young adults waste away opportunities given to them by their parents. It's a shame.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 08:30
Of course connections matter. Establishing and enhancing these connections is one of the biggest reasons many of us have decided to go to business school--because these connections will create opportunities. I think we can all agree that business schools don't pretend to be 100% meritocratic. If they were they would not distinguish between race, gender, age, or any other non-merit factors in their application process. Why is it that legacy status is so much more distasteful while it is completely acceptable, for example, that alumni will automatically give you a leg up on the competition when it comes to job candidacy just because you attended the same school as the person reading your resume, despite the fact that the schools themselves aren't all that meritocratic?
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 09:48
I definitely think connections do matter and I don't see a problem with it as long as people are qualified. If a company has a few positions open and someones family member get's them an interview and they are qualified then I see no problem. Now if they pass over qualified people just to hire someones kid then that's where their crossing the line. So I could careless, no actually I hope I'm in class with the daughter of a CEO as long as she doesn't have a 200 GMAT, 1.8 GPA and never worked a real job.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 11:47
Alright, I'll let my guard down. Connections do matter. They will help you get your foot in the door. They may even help you bring in new business to your company once you get your foot in the door. However, I still find it rare to see a Fortune 500 today that takes family background or connections into account in even the slightest when deciding who gets promotions/raises and who climbs up the ranks.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 12:15
So it seems we've decided that connections do matter, and there's some debate about how distasteful they are.

But here's what bothers me so much, and no one seems to have picked up on this:

What makes me CRAZY is when you hear people say, "why can't they just take care of themselves? I managed without any help." But the thing is, I think we can all agree that successful people (and their offspring) are able to build success on top of success simply because of who they are.

In other words, you can take two college applicants: maybe their scores, their stories, etc are all the same. And now one of them has a donor parent. Who's going to get in?

Or, in a much less obvious example:

Take those same two students. Same GPA. Same activities. Same majors. Same school. They're looking for a job. One of them has "Summer Internship, Prestigious Company." Another has "Summer Internship, Local Joint." If they both busted their tails for those internships, then fine. But what if one of them got the internship because her dad's the CFO?

How much better does her resume look? How much development and enrichment did she get for being there?

Now it's up to her to prove she deserves the next job, sure.

But my point is that the one with the average internship is also the one who was less likely to have had private tutors, AP courses, art lessons, and parents who could help her with her homework in high school.

My real point: it's not easy to get ahead. There's an entire self-perpetuating structure that supports the ones who are already there, and puts up quiet, near-invisible barriers for those who would like to get there.

Can rich kids screw up and get forced out of the race? Yes. Can trailer-court kids like me jump in and finish first? Yes. But don't tell me that one of those kids didn't get a head start. And it's not only because they were good. They were good AND they had a lot of help.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 12:39
aaudetat wrote:
But don't tell me that one of those kids didn't get a head start. And it's not only because they were good. They were good AND they had a lot of help.


I agree with all your points. In the end I guess you can't worry about what happens with other people. Is there enough opportunity for people without these "headstarts" to become successful in our own right? Definitely. And I guess that's all you, me or anybody else can really ask for.

I'd like to think (obviously it's not always true) that if you work hard enough, you'll be successful. And in the same way, if you are handed things and do not work hard or take advantage of what you are given, eventually you'll take a fall. Now there's a percentage of people that are so wealthy, they can screw around with their opporunities and they'll be alright. I don't think these people are very common, but it just so happens they are the types that command all the media attention (Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, etc.)
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 13:13
terp06 wrote:
However, I still find it rare to see a Fortune 500 today that takes family background or connections into account in even the slightest when deciding who gets promotions/raises and who climbs up the ranks.


I think there's a disconnect when I say connections matter for someone in a company. I'm not saying that a kid with a father who's a CFO will automatically get promoted when the next review comes around....I'm saying that connections matter for the superflous things, which in turn indirectly effects that person getting promoted.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 13:21
terp06 wrote:
Alright, I'll let my guard down. Connections do matter. They will help you get your foot in the door. They may even help you bring in new business to your company once you get your foot in the door. However, I still find it rare to see a Fortune 500 today that takes family background or connections into account in even the slightest when deciding who gets promotions/raises and who climbs up the ranks.


I don't think any company is going to advertise the fact that they hire or promote people because of family background or connections.

Example:
Fortune 500 company has mid-level position open. They have several people who are qualified and pretty comparable to one another. One guys dad plays golf with upper mgmt, he lives in the same area, member of the same country club, etc. Other guy is just as good if not better (but they're both qualified) but he's the only person in his family to go to college, has a small network of people he built in college, but it is harder becasue he comes from a different background and therefore has less in common with most upper mgmt. The job goes to the guy with connections.

People naturally gravitate towards people like themselves. If you have family or other friends to connect you then your better off. I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying it is. I don't have a real problem with it until people start choosing people they are connected too who aren't qualified over other qualified people.

There is a long list of reasons why people get positions, promoted, etc, and merit is only one of them (and maybe not the most important either).
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 22:05
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aaudetat, thanks for the plug for civility - Playing PC police is the worst part of doing this. Some of you are such great ambassadors for everything we want to be. what would I do without you. :(

everyone has a sob story to tell. You are welcome to vent on here. Someone I know belongs to the very rich and very well connected dad category. He always got a lot of grief from his peers for his affluence. He was discriminated against for something he has no control over.

Be grateful for the opportunities and try as hard as you can. If you enjoy what you are doing, none of this stuff will ever matter. By getting ahead, we assume that there is some end , some place where it all ends. At the risk of repeating this too many times, let me share this with you -- I read this on a student's blog.

Quote:
'Tucked away in our subconscious is an idyllic vision. We see ourselves on a long trip that spans the continent. We are travelling by train. Out the windows we drink in the passing scene of cars on nearby highways, of children waving at a crossing, of cattle grazing on a distant hillside, of smoke pouring from a power plant, of row upon row of corn, and wheat, of flatlands and valleys, of mountains and rolling hillsides, of city skylines and village halls.

But uppermost in our minds is the final destination. On a certain day at a certain hour we will pull into the Station. Bands will be playing and flags waving. Once we get there so many wonderful dreams will come true and the pieces of our lives will fit together like a completed jigsaw puzzle. How restlessly we pace the aisles, daming the minutes for loitering - waiting, waiting, waiting for the Station.

"When we reach the Station, that will be it!" we cry. "When I'm eighteen." "When I buy a new 450 SL Mercedes Benz!" "When I put the last kid through college." "When I have paid off the mortgage!" "When I get a promotion!" "When I reach retirement, I shall live happily ever after!"

Sooner or later we must realize there is no Station, no one place to arrive at once and for all. The true joy of life is the trip. The Station is only a dream. It constantly outdistances us.

So, stop pacing the aisles and counting the miles. Instead, climb more mountains, eat more ice cream, go barefoot more often, swim more rivers, watch more sunsets, laugh more, cry less. Life must be lived as we go along. The Station will come soon enough.'

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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   21 Apr 2008, 22:14
kudos for that wonderful story, Praet. :)
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   24 Mar 2010, 11:50
Hi All,

I'm two years late to the discussion... but thought I would weigh in anyway.

I agree, connections definitely matter and they do make it easier to get ahead in life. I would like to point out a couple of things though:

1) We all here are already fortunate. We could have been born in a hut in Ethiopia (no offense, just an example), never got any education whatsoever, and been relying on aid for survival.

2) I think that in many cases, those from middle class backgrounds are "hungrier" than those that were born into a life of plenty. So they strive harder to succeed. In fact, after a while, many rich families deteriorate because the priorities and drive are lost in later generations. They come to expect that everything will be handed to them in a platter, and here we come to my third point:

3) Circumstances change. There are wars, economic crises, government overthrows, technological breakthroughs, and competition between countries. The US has enjoyed a period of relative stability for the past 60 years, while most other countries in the world, mine included, have seen fortunes rise only to be crushed again. Yes, being in a position of power helps you foresee some of the changes and try to prepare for them, but it doesn't always work out.

As some of the other posters, I agree to accept that other people with connections have a leg up on me as long as my children will be able to enjoy some of the fruits of my success. But in either case I firmly believe that such advantage lasts for 2-3 generations tops.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   24 Mar 2010, 14:55
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snowinTX wrote:

2) I think that in many cases, those from middle class backgrounds are "hungrier" than those that were born into a life of plenty. So they strive harder to succeed. In fact, after a while, many rich families deteriorate because the priorities and drive are lost in later generations. They come to expect that everything will be handed to them in a platter, and here we come to my third point:


I think this is an important point. I have many (seriously. MANY.) friends from wealthy backgrounds who slothed their way through college and are languishing through their 20's, content to do minimal labor, live off trust funds, and fail completely to identify any sort of goals. Most of them are veeerryy unhappy, though they generally do little to change their situations. Maybe they all expected Life to be handed to them as easily as money.

(Disclaimer: there are exceptions to every rule, of course).

My point is - even those of us who have had to scrap for opportunity and work for each penny can be thankful - because we know how. We know ourselves, we know how to identify what we want, and we have the drive and wherewithall to get it. Of course it's not easy. It's scary, it's frustrating, it's depressing if you get overly reflective about it. But it's heartening to look at the other side and see that the grass isn't necessarily greener - just different.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   02 Apr 2010, 20:20
Just want to chip in my two cents.
I think connections do matter in career, but while wealth can be given, success is made by yourself.

My best friend's dad is a major Canadian oil mogul with wealth north of $1billion, and that certainly gave him the advantage of being an *insider* in oil&gas M&A in his investment bank. But for as long as I know him (like 5 years now), he sleeps 3 hours a day 6 days a week, and maybe like 6 hours on Sundays. The rest of the time he is in his office working or studying.
I can't even possibly think to match his dedication and enthusiasm, but he told me that because of his last name is so obvious, he has always been refereed to as XXX's son within the industry, which just make him work harder to make sure 1) to not ruin his father's reputation and 2) to make a name for himself, and not as an accessory to someone else, even his own father.

I've watched videos about Warren Buffet's daughter and basically it is the same situation.

At the end of the day I think rich kids' behavior is more dictated by their parents. They will work harder in stricter families.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink] New post   05 May 2015, 23:05
Hello from the GMAT Club MBAbot!

Thanks to another GMAT Club member, I have just discovered this valuable topic, yet it had no discussion for over a year. I am now bumping it up - doing my job. I think you may find it valuable (esp those replies with Kudos).

Want to see all other topics I dig out? Follow me (click follow button on profile). You will receive a summary of all topics I bump in your profile area as well as via email.
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Re: Legacy applicants [#permalink]
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