M7 MBA later after MS @Columbia, VS. forgo Columbia and Apply for MBA?

Question

Situation: 
I'm currently deciding whether I should go to Columbia University this fall for an MS in Data Science degree. I also have an admit from Northwestern for MS in AI. I have 3 years of Data Science work ex in my country. Now I'm contemplating if applying for an MBA this/next cycle would make more sense - essentially forgoing my MS admits since they can't be deferred.

Profile: 
My GMAT score is 760, but I'll have to find a new job for the year since I left my last one. I have a tonne of extra-curriculars (also accolades in Mountaineering and stuff), International research papers, and a US patent to support my profile. My undergrad Uni was a top one in my country, but I have a pretty Low GPA. The company I worked for was ok-ish. Rest of my profile is diverse.

Thoughts: 
I feel giving up a Columbia degree could be hella risky. I have the MBA door open for later, when I'd have grown a bit and would want to pivot into a specific career. But I'd be aged about 31 by then (assuming 3 years of work ex on OPT). After the MS, I'll statistically land in a usual individual contributor / applied research role in Big Tech - Idk how much that'd help my profile.

Queries: 
- How plausible is this : 3 YoE in home country (DS) -> Columbia MS DS -> 3 YoE in US (DS again) -> MBA? 
- What is the opportunity cost associated with not doing an MBA right now, but doing it at a later stage when I might already be earning a lot?
- What kind of careers apart from PM at Big Tech can I think of after doinf MBA now vs. later?
- Are there any particular concerns about doing an MBA after an MS degree - H1B Visas (since no OPT again), Age, YoE etc.

Any other tips on how do I build my profile up for an M7 MBA after the MS would be great! 
Thanks for guiding me.

dee1pug1 · Answer

Well done for the MS admit and 760. Interesting fork in the road that you have created for yourself. This is why I say 'choice is the enemy of happiness'.
IMHO, it really depends on where you are and where you want to go. I am sure this is not a badge collection exercise. Perhaps the concept of a "T-shaped" professional or career may help you: you're welcome to read this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/where-yo ... eep-gupta/

If you believe you have already built depth in your DS career and it is time to start building your width, then MBA it could be (because MBA is a general management program. period). If not, then MS is a logical / sound choice. Don't worry about age. In fact, an MS from Columbia may well lend you stronger credentials for an MBA in the USA post six years total experience.

bb · Answer

Congrats on your admit and welcome to GMAT Club!

Masters are a bit tricky for folks with experience like yours and great credentials since most of their placement happens in entry-level positions…. Three years of work experience is not huge but it is either entry-level recruitingand Campus or networking on your own off-campus. It sounds like you’re pretty capable. How likely do you feel you’ll be able to find a job on your own, obviously with Columbia degree backing you up but pretty much networking on your own? If you have some contacts in the US and that’s it in network you can tap into, I think it’s a real possibility and a decent move. At the same time, I see many programs recruiting to many international students into the masters programs with many of them being under prepared to go through the recruiting cycle in the US and forced to take lower positions or go back to their home countries.

Also, I would say choose either or. Either choose a masters or an MBA. It’s not that I am anti-education but it doesn’t sound like you need a masters for your goals…. I feel you probably would’ve been fine applying for an MBA just as well even though you only have three years of work experience….

I have observed recently that a lot of the tech and data folks struggle with MBA decisions because quite often it means a pay cut so well many of them would like to get an MBA because it would help them transition into the business side of things and expand opportunities and so on and so forth but in reality they will be taking a step down and compensation after graduation so it almost does not make sense financially unless they can get a full ride. But even in that case, do you have a good job that pays you more than you will be making out of business school and the only reason you would do it is because you want to improve yourself and potentially earn more five or 10 years later but not immediately. But that’s risky especially since you’re quitting your job… what I’m trying to say is that if you do get a masters now, chances are you’re probably not going to pursue an MBA just because it won’t quite fit very well into your plans. Which is totally fine.

So I have been kind of in your shoes and they had a choice of reapplying the following year for better programs but that would require the same things you outlined, getting a new job and applying as in you applicant and waiting and so on and so forth. I did not want to wait… at the same time, I think it’s totally doable to get a new job, get recommendations from your old employer and position it as a cool opportunity or something along those lines but it’s work and effort…

Posted from my mobile device

bb · Answer

Thanks so much for sharing and posting.
PS. The link you shared seems to be broken, just fyi.

Posted from my mobile device

MBAGuide · Answer

rastogi.akarsh congrats on the admits! - How plausible is this : 3 YoE in home country (DS) -> Columbia MS DS -> 3 YoE in US (DS again) -> MBA? Without a job in hand and with your eyes on the American dream, it will be very hard to give up on your admits.

But a bigger question to ask yourself right now is whether you think you are already done being an individual contributor and a data scientist, and that you have already outgrown your interest in the field? If so, and you have already begun to evaluate your choices from a perspective of worrying about how a decision would affect your prospects for an MBA, then you probably need to take steps in that direction. If an M7 MBA (or at least a top 10 MBA) is important to you, then you need to commit to it, which means getting a promising job offer, continuing to build your profile in the time you have, and preparing a solid application. But, if you already pretty much know that you are likely to work in product management after you get your MBA, you can still get a job in product management with a master's degree in DS if you put in a good effort to find the right opportunity. - What is the opportunity cost associated with not doing an MBA right now, but doing it at a later stage when I might already be earning a lot? It's too early to evaluate the opportunity cost of an MBA. There are too many variables! Career path 1: ..Columbia MS DS - > DS in the US (earn a lot) - > Do I really need an MBA? Career path 2 : ..Columbia MS DS - > DS in the US (earn a lot) - >Transition to PM (earn a lot) - > Do I really need an MBA? You cannot always evaluate a decision (in this case, an MBA) from a financial perspective alone. You may feel at some point that you need an MBA to develop into a better management professional/product manager and gain a broader perspective and network through an immersive MBA experience. - What kind of careers apart from PM at Big Tech can I think of after doinf MBA now vs. later? It depends on you. What other roles that you deal with in your job do you find interesting? There are several roles on the fringes of product management that you could possibly move into. For example, product marketing (at a company like Apple, that's a great role!). But you need to figure out what appeals to you. - Are there any particular concerns about doing an MBA after an MS degree - H1B Visas (since no OPT again), Age, YoE etc. Cant say. When the time comes, you will evaluate MBA schools based on your specific circumstances and seek out the ones that align with your needs. People want different things at different stages of life. For instance, in my MBA circle, I know individuals who obtained their Masters in the US but later found their preferences shifting away from the country for various reasons. They chose to pursue a one-year MBA in Europe or Asia that better suited their needs (some pivoted to other industries) and subsequently relocated to a different geographic location or returned to their home country. Feel free to reach out for a candid discussion. Aanchal Sahni (INSEAD alum, ex admissions interviewer) MBAGuideConsulting LinkedIn |WEBSITE: https://mbaguideconsulting.com/ | Message: +91 9971200927| email- mbaguideconsulting@gmail.com

rastogi.akarsh · Answer

Hi Aanchal (@MBAGuide), thank you for your careful consideration and comments regarding my dilemma.

I didn't expand earlier for the sake of brevity, let me address some of the concerns you raised :

1.   Interest in the field

I do harbor scholarly aspirations to be a leader in the space and maneuver the very core direction in which AI takes civilization. I was associated with Oxford's Future of Humanity Insitute to gain perspectives about AI alignment and safety. This is one of the biggest concerns of the century, and a problem I care about. Whether MS or MBA would've been a faster path to a strategic role in AI, is unclear. I'm guessing the Columbia DS degree and subsequent technical expertise would be more instrumental in establishing any authority in the field.

2.   Practicality and problems

Since Data Science / AI is one of the most sought-after fields, and only increasing in significance to society, this is a very special case. I'm not really sure if diving deep into such a difficult, demanding, and terse field is my cup of tea anymore. Practically speaking, I'm probably not going to get to lay my hands on the significant world-changing stuff. With H1B restrictions in place, I'm essentially binding myself to a bloodbath career, with way too much to study and keep up with - reading research papers every day and night for many more years, with a lot of stress arising from technical situations, high-pressure environments, and extreme competition.

With the layoffs going on and powerful AI coming up, I'm not sure which side of it I'd land on. And I'm not, in my belief, a perseverant hard-worker in any sense, so I might be the first to get  yeeted  out if I even manage to secure a decent job. More importantly, a Ph.D. is requisite in this field generally for a large chunk of good roles, and I don't have the energy, time, or mileage for that.

3.   Am I considering an MBA for the right reasons? :

With the discourse above, it does seem like I'm trying to use MBA as an  escape option  to save myself from toil and tension. However, I don't know how easier my life would be with the kind of jobs I might secure after an MBA. I'm not even sure what I'm most suited for, apart from PM in AI roles at Big Tech, though I know the opportunities to pivot are endless. I currently have barely any clue about finance, consulting, or even what an MBA entails in general.

One observation I bank on in my life is that I usually excel at most fields or skills I pick. I'm guessing that I would be exposed to a lot of fields during the MBA if I did it now, and would quickly gain decisiveness on what to pursue. In that case, the immature reasons to pursue an MBA will become irrelevant. And such decisions are meant to expand your mind and open up possibilities.

Furthermore, I'd surely want to procure money from a stable set of lifelong soft skills and ad-hoc thinking ability, rather than slogging like a madman endlessly for barely matching pay or stature. With an MBA, I like that the ceiling for progress would be removed, there'd be no pressure to keep acquiring extremely hard skills, and I can grow at an exponential pace with a baseline knowledge for quite long. Also, I'm more of a breadth person and a quick problem solver, than a rigorous  PhD in one thing  kind of guy in my evaluation.

4.   Need of an MBA later after MS

Your points raising doubts about the necessity of an MBA later are valid, and difficult to answer now. Career trajectories can vary wildly, but the ceiling effect in Tech exists. Many have told me that an MBA is often mandated for ascension to many top roles in Big Tech, starting at PM. And adding to that, I already wouldn't have much visibility or access to any other industry, let alone rapid growth in any of them. An MBA might be necessary if I needed to pivot and climb.

You're right about not thinking about an MBA financially, and yes that'd not be a concern unless my ability to demand even half of the earnings I was making before the MBA diminishes. Otherwise, I'm assuming it would pay off very well in the long run, if I get to stay in the US.

5.   Change of mind and geography later

I would want to confirm whether a majority of such decisions have been due to unforgiving Visa situations in US. I know H1B is getting horribly more difficult and improbable to procure. I heard that it is only through an H1B, that one can think of jumping to an MBA after having done an MS and using up the OPT. I'm not aware of more details or data. In that case, it makes more sense for me to move as early as possible to get even a minutely higher chance at H1B.

Secondly, I performed a considerably holistic evaluation of US, Canada, specific countries in Europe and Asia, and finally India as places where I'd want to spend even a part of my life in. There are no hard constraints here, but I concluded US as the place to be, especially if I accounted for my personal inclinations. Additionally, I'm completely unwilling to learn a new language if that would be required of me in Europe.

I understand that there are many deviations in life paths, responsibilities, and needs, and that could lead me to a change of mind a few years down the line. I just wish to ensure that such a decision is not owed to an external deadlock case, resulting in a significantly worse outcome.

I have reached out to you on Linkedin to facilitate further conversation.
Thanks a tonne to everyone who decided to read the wall of text and help me out in my career choices!

Akarsh Rastogi

jeffreyadcom · Answer

Hi Akarsh!

MS(DS): I guess you are already adept in DS and don't need a MS degree to enhance them. Since you already spent 3 years in the track, an MS wouldn't add any value, even if it is Ivy league.

PhD/DBA would give you time/save MS opportunity costs and is ideal if you are looking at innovation, cutting edge ideation/research, serious skill enhancement and a secure career with options in academics or industry or entrepreneurship. Check if Columbia/NorthWestern would allow you to move into PhD instead of MS. M7 MBA, if required, could be taken up later. With your GMAT scores, direct PhD admission is allowed in B-Schools, even with just an Undergrad degree. Check out HBS/Booth/Wharton/Sloan B-Analytics Profs too for a DBA!

MBA: At the moment, your # years of work-ex is below par, your profile is typical Indian IT-Tech, which is the largest applicant pool in any B-School and it is incredibly difficult to stick out. Your experience is largely DS specific and is not optimal for a M7 MBA despite the GMAT score. High chances of getting dinged.

M7 MBA later after MS @Columbia, VS. forgo Columbia and Apply for MBA?

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