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Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare

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Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare [#permalink]

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New post 14 Feb 2017, 03:31
Hi mikemcgarry ,

How are you?

Recently, I read Magoosh ebook of idiom,
I got a note, on the bottom of Page 10, that Also, adding the word “when” before the word “compared” is always 100% wrong.
when I read the note, I recalled a sentence from OG16 SC # 116, ( if I post a wrong session, please tell me, I will re-post it.)

November is traditionally the strongest month for sales of light trucks, but sales this past November, even when compared with sales in previous Novembers, accounted for a remarkably large share of total vehicle sales.
(A) but sales this past November, even when compared with sales in previous Novembers, -- credit answer
(B) but even when it is compared with previous Novembers, this past November’s sales
(C) but even when they are compared with previous Novembers, sales of light trucks this past November
(D) so that compared with previous Novembers, sales of light trucks this past November
(E) so that this past November’s sales, even compared with previous Novembers’ sales,

I can get that the comparison in the SC is sales in this past November VS sales in previous Novembers,
Also, I found there is a word "WHEN" before "compared", this case seems against the note from Magoosh ebook idiom -- Also, adding the word “when” before the word “compared” is always 100% wrong.

I think I must miss something, but I have no idea what I missed.

Would you please clarify ?

thanks in advance

have a nice day
>_~

Kudos [?]: 4 [0], given: 29

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Re: Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare [#permalink]

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New post 14 Feb 2017, 15:46
zoezhuyan wrote:
Hi mikemcgarry ,

How are you?

Recently, I read Magoosh ebook of idiom,
I got a note, on the bottom of Page 10, that Also, adding the word “when” before the word “compared” is always 100% wrong.
when I read the note, I recalled a sentence from OG16 SC # 116, ( if I post a wrong session, please tell me, I will re-post it.)

November is traditionally the strongest month for sales of light trucks, but sales this past November, even when compared with sales in previous Novembers, accounted for a remarkably large share of total vehicle sales.
(A) but sales this past November, even when compared with sales in previous Novembers, -- credit answer
(B) but even when it is compared with previous Novembers, this past November’s sales
(C) but even when they are compared with previous Novembers, sales of light trucks this past November
(D) so that compared with previous Novembers, sales of light trucks this past November
(E) so that this past November’s sales, even compared with previous Novembers’ sales,

I can get that the comparison in the SC is sales in this past November VS sales in previous Novembers,
Also, I found there is a word "WHEN" before "compared", this case seems against the note from Magoosh ebook idiom -- Also, adding the word “when” before the word “compared” is always 100% wrong.

I think I must miss something, but I have no idea what I missed.

Would you please clarify ?

thanks in advance

have a nice day
>_~

Dear zoezhuyan

How are you, my friend?

Yes, there are exceptions to that rule in the idiom ebook.

Here's the basic idea. The word "when" and "although" are two examples of subordinate conjunctions. The role of a subordinate conjunction is to begin a dependent clause. A dependent clause is still a full clause--it must have a noun + a full verb. We are breaking the rules if "when" or "although" or another subordinate conjunction doesn't have a full verb after it--for example, if it simply has a participle, rather than a full verb.

That's the basic idea, but that's not the whole story. The whole story is that when a pronoun & helping verb are implied, then don't need to be stated explicitly. Thus, what's printed on the page will look like a [subordinate conjunction] + [participle], but when we fill in the implied words, we have a full subject & verb.

In this example:
printed = "even when compared with sales in previous Novembers"
with implied text = "even when they are compared with sales in previous Novembers"

Those short words don't have to be written--they are understood. Nevertheless, the only way we make sense of the grammar in the dependent clause is to remember to include these.

Notice that this wouldn't work with all participle
"even when comparing with sales in previous Novembers"
That example is 100% wrong, because there's no pronoun & helping verb combination that we can use that would make sense in the context of the sentence.

Does all this make sense?

Take good care of yourself, my friend!

Mike :-)
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Re: Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare [#permalink]

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New post 14 Feb 2017, 21:34
mikemcgarry wrote:
Dear zoezhuyan

How are you, my friend?

Yes, there are exceptions to that rule in the idiom ebook.

Here's the basic idea. The word "when" and "although" are two examples of subordinate conjunctions. The role of a subordinate conjunction is to begin a dependent clause. A dependent clause is still a full clause--it must have a noun + a full verb. We are breaking the rules if "when" or "although" or another subordinate conjunction doesn't have a full verb after it--for example, if it simply has a participle, rather than a full verb.

That's the basic idea, but that's not the whole story. The whole story is that when a pronoun & helping verb are implied, then don't need to be stated explicitly. Thus, what's printed on the page will look like a [subordinate conjunction] + [participle], but when we fill in the implied words, we have a full subject & verb.

In this example:
printed = "even when compared with sales in previous Novembers"
with implied text = "even when they are compared with sales in previous Novembers"

Those short words don't have to be written--they are understood. Nevertheless, the only way we make sense of the grammar in the dependent clause is to remember to include these.

Notice that this wouldn't work with all participle
"even when comparing with sales in previous Novembers"
That example is 100% wrong, because there's no pronoun & helping verb combination that we can use that would make sense in the context of the sentence.

Does all this make sense?

Take good care of yourself, my friend!

Mike :-)


Hi mikemcgarry,
Aha ... so if "when + compared" is incorrect, it is because the structure is not sensible clause, instead of idiomatical error.

Did I get it ?

BTW, as your example "even when comparing with sales in previous Novembers"
Would you please give me an example when "even when comparing with sales in previous Novembers"
is correct.

I looked up dictionary, I found there is an idiom that use "compared with / to" , there is no "comparing with/ to".

Thanks in advance

Have a nice day.
>_~

Kudos [?]: 4 [0], given: 29

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Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare [#permalink]

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New post 15 Feb 2017, 12:53
zoezhuyan wrote:
Hi mikemcgarry,
Aha ... so if "when + compared" is incorrect, it is because the structure is not sensible clause, instead of idiomatical error.

Did I get it ?

BTW, as your example "even when comparing with sales in previous Novembers"
Would you please give me an example when "even when comparing with sales in previous Novembers"
is correct.

I looked up dictionary, I found there is an idiom that use "compared with / to" , there is no "comparing with/ to".

Thanks in advance

Have a nice day.
>_~

Dear zoezhuyan,

How are you, my friend? I'm happy to respond. :-)

Yes. In general, I would say that "when" + [participle] or "although" + [participle] would be correct only if an implied pronoun & helping verb pair can be construed to complete the clause. This is a fundamental grammar issue and has absolutely nothing to do with idioms.

Any present participle only could be right after "when" or "although" if the subject matter of the sentence is in the present tense and the doer of the action of the participle is the subject. It would be correct in a somewhat contrived sentence:
US federal law mandates that all employers be completely objective when comparing candidates of different ethnic backgrounds.
Because the present participle is active, the only time this would be used would be to describe the action of comparing. The past participle is a passive participle, so that can modify the objects compared.

There still is an idiom for the active participle "comparing" and even the verb "to compare," but these are rare.
He likes to compare his friends to characters in Shakespeare, but he compares himself with Milton.
The passive participle, "compared," is used 1000X more frequently than either the verb or the active participle.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)
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Re: Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare [#permalink]

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New post 15 Feb 2017, 13:22
zoezhuyan wrote:
Hi mikemcgarry ,

How are you?

Recently, I read Magoosh ebook of idiom,
I got a note, on the bottom of Page 10, that Also, adding the word “when” before the word “compared” is always 100% wrong.
when I read the note, I recalled a sentence from OG16 SC # 116, ( if I post a wrong session, please tell me, I will re-post it.)

November is traditionally the strongest month for sales of light trucks, but sales this past November, even when compared with sales in previous Novembers, accounted for a remarkably large share of total vehicle sales.
(A) but sales this past November, even when compared with sales in previous Novembers, -- credit answer
(B) but even when it is compared with previous Novembers, this past November’s sales
(C) but even when they are compared with previous Novembers, sales of light trucks this past November
(D) so that compared with previous Novembers, sales of light trucks this past November
(E) so that this past November’s sales, even compared with previous Novembers’ sales,

I can get that the comparison in the SC is sales in this past November VS sales in previous Novembers,
Also, I found there is a word "WHEN" before "compared", this case seems against the note from Magoosh ebook idiom -- Also, adding the word “when” before the word “compared” is always 100% wrong.

I think I must miss something, but I have no idea what I missed.

Would you please clarify ?

thanks in advance

have a nice day
>_~



Another thing , So that changes the meaning.

Again in option b & c there is comparison error.

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Re: Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare [#permalink]

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New post 17 Feb 2017, 20:29
mikemcgarry wrote:
Dear zoezhuyan,

How are you, my friend? I'm happy to respond. :-)

Yes. In general, I would say that "when" + [participle] or "although" + [participle] would be correct only if an implied pronoun & helping verb pair can be construed to complete the clause. This is a fundamental grammar issue and has absolutely nothing to do with idioms.

Any present participle only could be right after "when" or "although" if the subject matter of the sentence is in the present tense and the doer of the action of the participle is the subject. It would be correct in a somewhat contrived sentence:
US federal law mandates that all employers be completely objective when comparing candidates of different ethnic backgrounds.
Because the present participle is active, the only time this would be used would be to describe the action of comparing. The past participle is a passive participle, so that can modify the objects compared.

There still is an idiom for the active participle "comparing" and even the verb "to compare," but these are rare.
He likes to compare his friends to characters in Shakespeare, but he compares himself with Milton.
The passive participle, "compared," is used 1000X more frequently than either the verb or the active participle.

Does all this make sense?
Mike :-)


Hi mikemcgarry
Thanks so much for your excellent explanation

Have a nice day
>_~

Kudos [?]: 4 [0], given: 29

Re: Magoosh Idiom -- When + compare   [#permalink] 17 Feb 2017, 20:29
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