Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if'

I think there are more criteria to an elite than just the salary indicators.

brand recognition, student satisfaction, recruiter/corporate satisfaction, placement rate, CEO numbers, and a whole bunch of "holistic" criteria determine a school's Elite/UE status.

I agree with all the factors that kryzak lists. For UNC and most other near-elite schools, I think one of the biggest factors is reach. UNC has a great business school reputation in the South, trailing only Duke and UVA, and graduates have access to virtually all of the companies based in the South. There are a lot of great jobs around RTP, Atlanta, DC, etc., but if you look out a bit further, the UNC degree doesn't travel as well. UNC places noticeably fewer grads on Wall St. than any of the elite schools (possible exception of Yale, which was all touchy feely for a long time). This is true for both banking and non-banking (media, advertising, etc.) jobs in NY. UNC has little presence in the Midwest and the degree has no advantages over lower ranked schools in the region. UNC has virtually no reach on the West Coast.

Elite schools, by and large, have good reach throughout the country. So, I think UNC grads land great jobs, but they don't have nearly the same access to jobs outside the region. Totally different story at elites; just my personal experience I'm interested in banking and the west coast and was able to line up meeting with 8 banks over winter break in LA and SF with little effort.

I actually believe Hjorts calls the cluster trans-elite; but these schools can be strong for certain functions and/or regions, but are not as strong in other functions and/or regions.

What exactly would be considered an Ultra-Elite, Elite, etc.

Is it Top 5 - Ultra Elite

5-15 - Elite

Based on USNews, Business Week?

Someone please clarify.

Generally USnews is the most accurate of the ranking systems, but we are referring to Hjort's cluster system. If you go to the section on B-school reviews you will find more details there.

Ultra Elites aka the M7:
Chicago
Columbia
Harvard
MIT
Northwestern
Penn
Stanford

Elites:
Cornell
Dartmouth
Duke
Michigan
NYU
UC Berkeley
UCLA
Virginia (Darden)
Yale

Trans Elites:
Carnegie Mellon
Emory
North Carolina (Kenan-Flagler)
Texas (McCombs)
USC (Marshall)

Near Elites:
Georgetown
Indiana (Kelley)
Maryland (Smith)
Notre Dame
Purdue
Rochester
Vanderbilt
Washington University (Olin)

Near Elite Frontiers:
Regionally recognized schools.

Yup, that would definitely be the clusters for the 2000's. Who knows how they're going to change, but since rankings take a long time to evolve, we probably won't see any major changes in clusters until the 2010's.

I think that it will be more of a segment between ultra elites and the elites. Columbia would move down, Ross, Tuck, and Haas probably will move up. They wont quiet be ultra elites but they are above the rest of the elites.

maybe a "trans-ultra-elite" class in the future?

Really? What makes you think that Columbia will go down in reputation? I find it really difficult to believe that Columbia will be perceived at a lower level in the foreseeable future. I've always found Columbia very interesting .. so maybe I am biased. I agree that Columbia is clearly at the lower end of the Ultra-elite (M7) cluster .. just like H/S/W are clearly at the upper end of the Ultra-elite cluster .. but that can't be reason enough to push Columbia down a level. Again, just like we aren't creating a super-ultra-elite category for H/S/W. I would really like people to talk openly about it (Columbia's future downfall) and help us all get informed.

ps. Are Duke and NYU so far behind Ross that Ross should move to a cluster higher than those schools?

I would love to know more about Columbia's position too. Looks like recently they're not ranked too well in both US News and BW. Does anyone know the reason?

I don't think Columbia will "drop" to Elite per-se, but probably form that strange "trans-UE" with the Haas/Tuck/Ross type schools.

As for Tuck, it has always been one of the top Elites, just like H/S/W are the top UEs. Haas is an "up and comer" with it's focus on increasing recruiting, career placement, upping their tuition to hire better professors and expand their facilities (and probably student body #), etc... Ross I don't know, but with a #5 on BW and a #11 in USN (just behind Stern), I think it's definitely an upward moving school too.

Not sure what to say about Duke and NYU. Both are good schools, especially since Duke used to be solidly in the 7-10 spot on USN back in the 90s.

I think what hurts Columbia are its odd application system, rep for yield control, and the fact that its a finance school so in the M7 is competing against GSB and Wharton both of which seem to have a big advantage recently. Much like I think in a way GSB not publishing its admit rate hurts a lot of people's opinion of its selectivity...since they dont give a number people assume it must be a lot easier to get into than the other M7s that publish data.

I believe Columbia is redoing its curriculum which could help its standings. I think its just the general feel that Columbia has been falling further behind the other M7s. Schools do move, I know someone who went to Chicago in the 80s and was blown away by my getting into Kellogg but not Chicago since back when he was there, Kellogg was considered a far better program but now they are on par. So for schools to move up someone has to move down.

I definitely agree that there is the super ultra mega elite of H/S and then the ultra super elite of Wharton. It is extremely rare for anyone to choose anther school over H/S, even Wharton...thats why I see it more of the big 2 and then wharton, because most people who get into Wharton but not H/S end up there.

I would say Ross has a leg up on Duke, especially once its new facilities are done. Its not a knock on duke which is a great school but Ross just has an advantage in some programs and reputation in a few of the bigger areas like GM...yes Duke has some top notch programs but they are slightly more niche areas.

NYU I would say is an elite, its second fiddle to Columbia in NYC. There is a difference, its possible it could move up to be a par school (see GSB vs Kellogg) but at this time I think it still trails Columbia. Location NYU definitely has a great advantage over any other finance school, heck its even got an advantage over Columbia since its almost on Wall St.

Now the disclaimer. I only applied to GSB/MIT/Kellogg...I had negative interest in HBS, no interest in Wharton, and no chance at Stanford. I dont want finance and the cost of living is too high in NYC so no Columbia. I was planning on applying to Duke and Ross in R2. Dropped Tuck because of location and poor job market for Mrs. Riverripper. Not a west coast guy, would rather a blizzard than an earthquake so no Haas. This is my opinion from interacting with other applicants, current students, and alums...no scientific study was done to verify the information contained above. We can revisit this subject in 5 years and see how horribly wrong I was or amazingly predictive this post was. See you then.

Yeah .. those are two things that I truly dislike about Columbia. I won't be surprised if the yield control actually ends up hurting them more than doing any good. Anyway, what are others' opinions? Specially .. why do you guys think Columbia dropped in USNEWS and BW rankings?

LOL! I guess it's "short" pain versus "long" pain. I guess if an earthquake hits, then either the 2nd or 4th largest metro area in the US will be completely destroyed (LA or SF/Bay Area), so we Californians just decided that there's no reason to worry about it too much.

mNeo-here are my thoughts on CBS. Again- I like the school a lot and have applied in the RD.

1. Its a very NYC school. It seems to cater to the bankers and the likes.
2. I found the students to be pretty competitive- maybe the most amongst all the schools that i visited. Maybe this does translate into a certain image amongst the recruiters.
3. It has done nothing to improve in the rankings, similar to Kellogg. So you find that Chicago is now the 'hottest' UE. This is not to say this is permanent, once CBS and Kellogg get new facilities (I heard in a few years time) then you might end up finding they are back in demand. Other schools though are catching up. Tuck, one of the 'whitest' schools around is looking to go after a more international student population. This I am sure will improve their statistics (especially yield). Same with Ross- once their new building is opened, it could jump up a spot or two.
4. It does have the most complicated application system. I mean, ED, J-Term, RD- makes it difficult to compare the strength of the class with its peers.