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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 26 Dec 2007, 18:24
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I would take a job b/c of the higher starting salary if I was financially strangled from 115k of student loan debt

In this case, going to the smaller school for free allows you to take a job with more opportunities despite a lower initial salary

The way my options are lining up right now, I can go to an elite frontier school or whatever its called with a giant scholarship or an elite school with no money

If I go to the elite school, I HAVE to take the highest paying job I get no matter what city its in to live reasonably while I pay 1250 a month in student loans for 10 years
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 26 Dec 2007, 18:25
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It may cost less up front to go to the near elite but it might not provide you the same options upon graduation.

Really? The list of recruiters at the supposedly "inferior" schools look pretty much the same as the ones at the higher ranked schools. The only exception would be IB. If one wants to do something other than IB, than it doesn't seem like opportunities are lacking at a lower ranked school. Referring to Pelihu's "big fish in a small pond" analogy, if company X recruits at both elite and lower ranked schools, I think a hardworking "big fish" at a lower ranked school has just a good a chance as a "small fish" at an elite school.
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IB, MC, and a lot of big companies aim for top schools. Yes schools list the companies as recruiting there, but they may not hire people every year but schools dont take that company off the list. Also they may only visit once a year instead of half a dozen like at the big name schools. Only one or two people may get hired by company X from a near elite while 10 people at an elite may get offers.

Personally I am not going into banking or consulting but I think that by going to a top school I will have many more doors open to me than if I went to a top school. If you apply to a company with an ultra elite on your resume its going to get a closer look than one from a schools ranked in the 20s. Companies recruit heavily at top schools because they know the school have done a lot of the screening for them.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 26 Dec 2007, 18:36
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Only one or two people may get hired by company X from a near elite while 10 people at an elite may get offers.
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Right, but if you are the "big fish", you will probably be the one out of the "one or two" that get hired.

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If you apply to a company with an ultra elite on your resume its going to get a closer look than one from a schools ranked in the 20s
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That's probably true, but the hypothetical full scholarship recipient can also put the fact that he/she received the scholarship on his/her resume. I'm guessing that companies can put 2 and 2 together and figure out that an applicant that got a full ride at a lower ranked school probably had a good chance at getting into a higher ranked school.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 26 Dec 2007, 18:37
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IB, MC, and a lot of big companies aim for top schools. Yes schools list the companies as recruiting there, but they may not hire people every year but schools dont take that company off the list. Also they may only visit once a year instead of half a dozen like at the big name schools. Only one or two people may get hired by company X from a near elite while 10 people at an elite may get offers.

Personally I am not going into banking or consulting but I think that by going to a top school I will have many more doors open to me than if I went to a top school. If you apply to a company with an ultra elite on your resume its going to get a closer look than one from a schools ranked in the 20s. Companies recruit heavily at top schools because they know the school have done a lot of the screening for them.
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The other thing that you might not notice until you get to campus is that all companies do not recruit for all roles at the schools that they visit. Microsoft is still a popular employer, and they visit a whole bunch of schools, but they only recruit for strategy and finance (two more popular functions) at a much more limited number of schools. They recruit for marketing and project management at a much broader set of schools; and of course as RR pointed out they may take few or no students in certain years. Just because Microsoft posts jobs on the campus site, or even visits campus, doesn't mean that opportunities are similar at all schools.

This is very common. I did IB recruiting, and it's clear that some banks visit a lot of schools, but only recruit seriously at a few. For example, JP Morgan is really popular this year (given the tumult the with some of their competitors) and they will hire their standard number of IB people here on campus. They also visit UCLA, but only recruit for private banking there. So yes, they do recruit at a lot of schools, but they don't recruit for the most desirable jobs at all campuses. My friends here interested in S&T face a challenge because recruiting is limited to just a few schools. So yes, UBS does recruit on campus for IB, but those interested in S&T have to pave their own way. It's definitely not all the same, just because a school lists a certain firm as a recruiter.

Also, it's very very very important to distinguish between on-campus recruiting from just posting jobs on campus. Basically, firms are happy to post all their openings with every b-school in the country; all the career office has to do is contact them for a list. But that's a whole lot different than if they acvtively consider people at those campuses and invest time and money recruiting them. There's a reason why ultra-elite and elite schools maintain their places year after year.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 26 Dec 2007, 20:21
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jessica83
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It may cost less up front to go to the near elite but it might not provide you the same options upon graduation.

Really? The lists of recruiters at the supposedly "inferior" schools look pretty much the same as the ones at the higher ranked schools. The only exception would be IB. If one wants to do something other than IB, than it doesn't seem like opportunities are lacking at a lower ranked school. Referring to Pelihu's "big fish in a small pond" analogy, if company X recruits at both elite and lower ranked schools, I think a hardworking "big fish" at a lower ranked school has just a good a chance as a "small fish" at an elite school.
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Granted, I'm biased but I'm not sure thats the full picture. For instance, a top name consulting firm might interview 100 people from the GSB. I can't say for sure, but I'd be surprised if they invest that kind of effort everywhere. The degree to which the opportunity exists probably varies. Moreover, I've met more than one firm that has a pretty limited list of schools they talk to. There's one I recall that said they recruit from Harvard, Wharton and Chicago and nowhere else with the goal of hiring two from each. (Wasn't IB).

I'd also mention that in other sectors, the brand istelf carries weight long into your career - for instance in consulting, often, while pitching a client, a partner might put together a deck with a suggested team, and in so doing, provide the client with details about each person on the team. You can bet your bottom dollar that if someone graduated from a top MBA program, even if it was many years ago, it'll be noted in the deck. In certain circles, the pedigree of your degree, even 10 or 15 years later, still matters.

On the subject of a big fish in a small pond -- its interesting, again, I think it varies by industry, but round here (and Kellogg for that matter too from what my friends tell me), recruiters couldn't care less what your grades are and many don't give a darn about your extracurricular school-participation stuff either. Maybe at an elite they put more focus on that stuff, I don't know. I've even heard of recruiters questioning students about why they bother to list that they are a scholarship recipient.

That said, I think that to a degree you are right - you can get a pretty similar job out of an elite as you can an ultra elite. I just think the odds are stacked a bit differently.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 10:06
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For simplicity's sake, let's assume that you don't want to be an IB "king of the universe", in which case going to an elite school would be the only option.

If you look at the elite schools, their average starting salary hovers around $100,000. From near elite down to near elite frontier the average starting salary is around $85-90,000. Let's say $88,000 just to split the difference. Placement rates at the lower ranked schools can be just as high as the elite schools. For example Rice has something like a 97% placement rate. Minnesota's placement rate is around the same. Assuming you are "average" and will make the average starting salary, in my opinion it makes perfect sense to go to the lower ranked school with a full ride.

If you go to an elite school with no scholarship, you will have to shoulder around $100,000 in debt after graduating. Taking 10 years to repay the loan at 8.25% interest, you will be paying out around, $15,000 a year in loans, putting your salary right at the level of the near elite or lower graduate. In 10 years, after the loan is repaid, the name of the school on your resume will carry considerably less weight. In those 10 years, a lot can happen. Maybe the graduate from the lower ranked school can bust their hump and work their way into a high level position with other elite school graduates. Maybe the elite graduate will get fired. Who knows? Since the MBA's brand name depreciates severely after a few years out of school, why not take the bird in hand (scholarship) now? Taking the loan payments into account and assuming everyone is "average", the salaries of the elite school graduate with no scholarship and the lower ranked school graduate with a full scholarship are the same for the first few years after graduation. After that, it is up to the individual to make their own way by performing at a high level at their job.

I agree with gmatclb and RR that you can't just take the numbers like that; but if you are going to point to numbers you should try to get them right. According to US News average salaries at elites are above $110k (Berkeley, NYU, Michigan, Darden, and Cornell are all above this mark); not the 100k that you point out. Difference in starting salary is probably about $20-30k on average over near elites; and given the greater opportunity stronger alumni networks at the better schools, the difference should persist if not increase over time. The other consideration is that at the elite and ultra-elite schools, you have the option of going for one of the higher paying jobs if you change your mind.

Look, as I stated above I think that the near elite schools are definitely worth the time and money you invest in them - especially if you get a steep discount (scholarship). I have no doubt that most people at these schools get good jobs. The difference at an elite school is that you'll have a lot more say into what job you actually take, in terms of job function, location, role, etc. At a lower ranked school you'll have fewer options and will more likely take what is available. Say I'm interested in a job in strategy in Boston (I'm not, but just pretend); I'm not sure if I'd be super happy if I had to take a job in supply chain management job in Cleveland, even at the same pay.
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I currently attend a Near Elite Frontier school and can understand both sides of the argument. First, jobs such as IB and consulting pay consistent regardless of what school you graduated from. Additionally there are some VERY strong schools for each of these professions. For example, Rice places proportionately similar amounts of students in IB as any Elite or UE. Almost all the major banks recruit on campus (GS, Lehman, Merill, Citi......). Thus, if you want to do IB and get a full ride to Rice I would argue that choosing that program over any other program is not crazy. However, as Pelihu stated, your options of where you work are severely limited compared to E/UE programs. While Rice places between 15%-30% of their students in IB it is rare if over 2 of those students work anywhere outside of Houston.

Additionally, I think I can be a prime example of how attending a NE program does not make it impossible to land a great internship outside of what the program is known for. I enrolled at Rice thinking that I would go into IB and quickly realized that the crazy hours are not for me. So I decided to pursue Brand Management. I am signed on at PepsiCo in Purchase, NY. PepsiCo (not Frito Lays, Quaker or one of their other less prestigious factions) only considers Harvard, Stanford , Northwestern and Michigan as core schools. Thus, regardless if I would have went to any other program outside of those 4 , I would have been in the same situation as I was at Rice. So in this situation it would have not benefited me much at all to have attended Wharton, Chicago, Columbia, etc...

Additionally, I do not believe the quality of education is much better at higher ranked schools. However, the quality of classmates is a little more consistent. I have friends that attended both MIT and Stanford and both admit that there were a few people in each class that did not belong there. However in an NE/NEF, those aforementioned people are just a little more common.

Also, I think the argument that the program is going to remain an E/UE 20 - 30 years from now is useless. If an MBA is still relying on the brand of their degree that far from graduation there is something extremely wrong with their situation. I hope 20 - 30 years post graduation all of our experience will outshine any degree from any school. If not, we will need to reassess our situations!

The recruiting benefits at an E/UE are better in general, but there are those programs in the NE/NEF that will meet your needs. And I think each person if lucky enough to be confronted with a E/UE w/o $$$ and an NE/E with a full-ride needs to decide on their own what is most important to them. Neither choice is better consistently across all situations.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 10:36
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I am signed on at PepsiCo in Purchase, NY. PepsiCo
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Purchase -5 mins drive from my place, buzz me when you are in town -

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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 14:12
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I agree with gmatclb and RR that you can't just take the numbers like that; but if you are going to point to numbers you should try to get them right. According to US News average salaries at elites are above $110k (Berkeley, NYU, Michigan, Darden, and Cornell are all above this mark); not the 100k that you point out.
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From the US news "America's best graduate schools 2008":

NYU average starting salary: $94,968
https://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... _brief.php

Berkeley average starting salary: $98,977
https://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... _brief.php

Michigan starting salary: $93,474
https://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... _brief.php

etc. etc. etc.

Where did you get $110K? Including bonuses?

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On the subject of a big fish in a small pond -- its interesting, again, I think it varies by industry, but round here (and Kellogg for that matter too from what my friends tell me), recruiters couldn't care less what your grades are and many don't give a darn about your extracurricular school-participation stuff either. Maybe at an elite they put more focus on that stuff, I don't know. I've even heard of recruiters questioning students about why they bother to list that they are a scholarship recipient.
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My reasoning concerning the "hardworking big fish" has to do with the amount of exposure said "big fish" gets to the juicy internships/jobs, not how it might look on their resume. I would think that a student that is accepted with a full scholarship, performs at the top of their class, and participates in extracurriculars might get internship leads that some Joe Blow that dicks around and gets Cs wouldn't. I'm not saying that the "big fish" status will help once they are in the interview room, but it might put them there. That's all you can ask for.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 16:15
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great post squali83! That sort of insight from an NE/NEF school was very invaluable. My opinions sort of straddle between both sides of the argument, which is why I haven't really participated in this discussion more than my initial statements (because I find good points from both sides). personally, I am a firm believer that if you go to a good NE/NEF school, you will easily do well in that REGION. If you're also a very resourceful and aggressive student, it is not impossible to find a great job like squali did with PepsiCo.

One of the alums I spoke with from UCLA was able to leverage his class performance, business plan competitions, and other schmoozing work to get some great internships at very famous VCs in California, even though most of them generally recruit from Stanford (and maybe Haas) and other top UE schools in entrepreneurship like MIT, Harvard. He said not many people can do it, maybe 5 out of a class of 340 every year, but you have access to them if you are motivated enough. It is not like the door is slammed shut just because you didn't go to a UE.

But in the end, I think going to a UE/E will make it easier to explore different options probably within 5-10 years of graduation, using the brand name of the school itself to help you open doors. After that, you better rely on your excellent work experience to get you jobs, and not the school's name anymore.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 16:42
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This is some wonderful debate, I'll throw in my own Australian 2 cents worth. To me brand matters. Its not about being a snob, its more about the reality of hailing from 10,000 miles away from mainland USA. The ad-com looks at my resume and observes a quirky name - Macquarie. "What kind of an investment bank is that ?" he (or she for the PC types) asks. Little does he know that in downtown Sydney, Macquarie in the resume holds the same sway as Goldman Sachs does in downtown NY.

Similarly when I mention to my colleagues that I am applying to Chicago, they go "Oh Yeah, nice city, is the school any good ?" You don't wanna know what they'd say to Columbia, Kellogg or heaven forbid - Rice. No offense to the quality of the school or the experience, which I am sure are outstanding, but from my POV, if I am to return to Australia, I need to have a brand in my resume that is instantly recognizable by recruiters HERE and not in downtown Houston, otherwise it would be a very expensive 150K, and 2 years in lost opportunities. And a lost 2 years with zero brand can never be made up in scholarship packets.

It may surprise some but INSEAD and LBS hold almost as much recognition in Australia as H/S and maybe more than W. Even the other UEs are not as well known as the Ivy leagues.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 18:50
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Another point I don't think anyone has raised is that differences will be more apparent in a down economy. When the economy is booming, jobs are plentiful and everything looks great, it doesn't matter as much where you go to school because everyone is landing nice jobs. If the economy turns down (not a remote possibility right now), the differences between schools will be much more pronounced. You don't need to look back further than about 5 years to understand what it's like when the sh!t really hits the fan. If I were starting school next fall, I'd be very concerned about how the job market will view a given MBA degree.

BTW, the numbers I quoted are from the 2008 print edition of the US News guide to graduate schools and include bonuses. Average 1st year comp at NYU is $116k, Michigan $111k, Berkeley $113k. The same argument applies in either case, whether you include bonuses or not. The difference between elite and near elite on average is $20k+, give or take a few thousand. If the job market goes in the crapper, you can draw your own conclusions.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 19:26
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Another point I don't think anyone has raised is that differences will be more apparent in a down economy. When the economy is booming, jobs are plentiful and everything looks great, it doesn't matter as much where you go to school because everyone is landing nice jobs. If the economy turns down (not a remote possibility right now), the differences between schools will be much more pronounced. You don't need to look back further than about 5 years to understand what it's like when the sh!t really hits the fan. If I were starting school next fall, I'd be very concerned about how the job market will view a given MBA degree.

BTW, the numbers I quoted are from the 2008 print edition of the US News guide to graduate schools and include bonuses. Average 1st year comp at NYU is $116k, Michigan $111k, Berkeley $113k. The same argument applies in either case, whether you include bonuses or not. The difference between elite and near elite on average is $20k+, give or take a few thousand. If the job market goes in the crapper, you can draw your own conclusions.
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I agree about the economy and the state of it affecting recruiting. It will without a doubt affect recruiting across the board. That is when an Ultra Elite name brand will really help, even the Elite names will struggle during a downturn. However, speaking with all the firms I have spoke with, hiring seems to not be a concern for any of them in the future. They all say it will remain strong and do not expect to cut numbers any time soon.

As for salaries being > $20K+ that is completely false. Rice's average package for the 2007 class was ~105K which to me seems between ~5-10K less a school (based on the numbers provided above). Unless you go to S/H the impact on compensation is more decided by the career path you chose than school. I have about 4/5 classmates who turned down top 10 programs to go to Rice and are completely happy with their decision. So as I said before, it really isn't cut and dry which choice would be better, evaluate the situation and decide for your personal situation which would be best.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 20:07
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Well, you have to stay consistent with the time frame if you want to compare salaries. The 2008 edition of US News gives average salaries for class of '06; '07 salaries were higher. Along with Vanderbilt and Minnesota, Rice does have the highest average starting salary for similarly ranked schools at $97k for the class of '06. Average salaries for similarly ranked schools, including bonus, range from $70k to $97k, with the bulk clustered in the mid $80s. Going by the same scale, Rice (again the highest of it's peers) is $15k behind Haas, Darden & Cornell, with NYU & Tuck a bit higher and Michigan & Duke a little lower.

The difference between the elite and near-elite schools, with the same scale and time frame, does in fact average $20k+; $25-30k would be more accurate as an average difference when you consider all schools in both groups. You could argue that Rice, with its $15k difference doesn't belong with this set of peers, but it's employment rate at graduation (as shown in US News 2008) is among the lowest for any of the top 50 schools at just 70.5%. That's pretty much like the situation when they sent people off to WWI; look to your left, look to your right, one of you won't have a job when you graduate.

However you choose to look at it, there is a quantifiable gap between the salaries and employment rates of elite schools as a group and near-elite schools as a group. I'll argue that there's an even larger non-quantifiable difference in accessibility to the best employers, job functions and locations; it's a difference that may not show up in 1st year salary in a booming economy but will definitely be more pronounced in a bad economy.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 21:11
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Macquarie. "What kind of an investment bank is that ?" he (or she for the PC types) asks.

It may surprise some but INSEAD and LBS hold almost as much recognition in Australia as H/S and maybe more than W. Even the other UEs are not as well known as the Ivy leagues.
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Harvard and LBS rule australia --for the sheer number of alumni holding top positions

i doubt if stanford or insead have the numbers
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 27 Dec 2007, 21:51
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Well, you have to stay consistent with the time frame if you want to compare salaries. The 2008 edition of US News gives average salaries for class of '06; '07 salaries were higher. Along with Vanderbilt and Minnesota, Rice does have the highest average starting salary for similarly ranked schools at $97k for the class of '06. Average salaries for similarly ranked schools, including bonus, range from $70k to $97k, with the bulk clustered in the mid $80s. Going by the same scale, Rice (again the highest of it's peers) is $15k behind Haas, Darden & Cornell, with NYU & Tuck a bit higher and Michigan & Duke a little lower.

The difference between the elite and near-elite schools, with the same scale and time frame, does in fact average $20k+; $25-30k would be more accurate as an average difference when you consider all schools in both groups. You could argue that Rice, with its $15k difference doesn't belong with this set of peers, but it's employment rate at graduation (as shown in US News 2008) is among the lowest for any of the top 50 schools at just 70.5%. That's pretty much like the situation when they sent people off to WWI; look to your left, look to your right, one of you won't have a job when you graduate.

However you choose to look at it, there is a quantifiable gap between the salaries and employment rates of elite schools as a group and near-elite schools as a group. I'll argue that there's an even larger non-quantifiable difference in accessibility to the best employers, job functions and locations; it's a difference that may not show up in 1st year salary in a booming economy but will definitely be more pronounced in a bad economy.
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I agree there is advantage to attending an elite over a near elite, anyone who would not agree with that is blind. However, we both know one can find innumerable stats supporting salaries one way or another. My point was that while it might serve as a better place to have recruiting brought to you, there are definitely programs that are outside of the UE/E categories that can match in each of the industries. For example Rice has tremendous exposure to Banks. So if one were to want to work as an IB in Houston, Rice would be the obvious choice, especially in the current economy, where trading commodities is gaining drastically in popularity and profitability. Just as USC cannot be touched if you want to get into the entertainment industry after your MBA. There are just some programs that will get the job done just as effectively if not more effectively if one were to go into B-School with a clear set goal. The only thing is a majority of us do not, or will change our choices. That is when a "better" brand name is useful. And just to avoid the issue, yes, PE/VC/HF do recruit on the campuses of the NE, I have experienced that first hand as well. I'm just simply saying, brand is great, but at the end of the day without hard work, direction and dedication a graduate from the University of Phoenix could out achieve an H/S grad.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 28 Dec 2007, 06:51
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I've also always wondered how much the numbers are skewed by people who are sponsored and just returning. Also, some schools include bonuses, some do not... For instance, I have a friend who signed at a firm recently, base pay around $110K or so, plus 95K sign on bonus -- to say nothing of the end of year bonus. It's not IB, its not even consulting. It's a general management role. The salary that gets "officially reported"? $110K.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 28 Dec 2007, 07:02
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I don't know if I agree that salary should be a deciding factor in how the brand name effects the argument between UE/E and NE/NEF. Many times the strong NE/NEF schools are regional schools, and place a majority of their graduates in that region. Whereas, the top tier programs seem to place a large number of graduates in NYC or LA, with a much higher cost of living. I haven't done the research of exact numbers. All I'm saying is salary as a baseline is not necessarily a good indicator without cost of living factored in somehow. I like the argument that the UE/E give you more options down the road, especially in a tough market, but I don't like that argument that salaries should be taken as is, without any further consideration of the statistics.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 28 Dec 2007, 07:15
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emoryhopeful
I don't know if I agree that salary should be a deciding factor in how the brand name effects the argument between UE/E and NE/NEF. Many times the strong NE/NEF schools are regional schools, and place a majority of their graduates in that region. Whereas, the top tier programs seem to place a large number of graduates in NYC or LA, with a much higher cost of living. I haven't done the research of exact numbers. All I'm saying is salary as a baseline is not necessarily a good indicator without cost of living factored in somehow. I like the argument that the UE/E give you more options down the road, especially in a tough market, but I don't like that argument that salaries should be taken as is, without any further consideration of the statistics.
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Well I was sort of getting at a similar point - the figures reported are sort of meaningless in the first place because they can be so massively skewed by sign on's and end of year bonuses.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 28 Dec 2007, 07:59
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I've also always wondered how much the numbers are skewed by people who are sponsored and just returning. Also, some schools include bonuses, some do not... For instance, I have a friend who signed at a firm recently, base pay around $110K or so, plus 95K sign on bonus -- to say nothing of the end of year bonus. It's not IB, its not even consulting. It's a general management role. The salary that gets "officially reported"? $110K.
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Wow, Rhyme, did this kid have a stellar background prior to bschool? How did he land such a sweet gig.
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Near Elite vs. Elite - Indulge me in some 'what if' 28 Dec 2007, 08:53
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I met a kid at MIT during my tour who got a GM position that was paying something like 140K with a huge sign on and guaranteed year end bonus. All his buddies were giving him a hardtime because he was holding out for more vacation or something. I think its a function of the industry and what they did pre-MBA, two people could get hired by the same company...one might have tons of prior experience in the field and be hired at a higher level than the other.
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