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Good answer pelihu, I was curious about the question myself. Now I know this has been discussed before, but do you have any comments on the question if it were an Elite school with full tuition and an Ultra Elite with no scholarships?

Personally, I would say it comes down to fit and what you want to get out of it. The UE may give you that brand name, but if the Elite has something specific that you're looking for (real estate, health care, location, etc...) and offers you full tuition, it may be enough to pass over the UE for the Elite. Of course, if you're not sure what you want to do and want the maximum amount of options open, then the UE may be a better choice.

Feel free to add your own comments to this... :)
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That's an interesting question, and I guess I have some first-hand experience with this (I have a full-tuition merit scholarship here). My thought is that as long as you are interested in firms that recruit on campus, I'd probably go with the full scholarship at the elite school.

Here's what I think. If a firm comes on campus, they're doing so because they'd like to interview and hire some people; otherwise they wouldn't waste the effort. Naturally, the most competitive firms conduct a very limited number of interviews and full-scholarship holders naturally stand out from the crowd.

Let's say a firm interviews 15 people at an elite like Darden to hire 3, and perhaps interviews 40 people at an ultra-elite like Columbia to hire 15. Which situation would you rather be in? All things being equal, the ultra-elite situation looks better; but consider the additional factors. As a full scholarship holder, it might be easier to be one of the 15 (class of 300) at Darden than one of the 40 (out of 500) at Columbia from among the general population. Consider also that the competition at Columbia might be tougher; you might be competing with people that won scholarships there. Once you get the interview, it's up to you, and whichever school you're at, it's up to you to nail the interview.

This only applies to firms that recruit on campus at each of the schools you are considering. For example, I know that some banks don't recruit at all the elites. Some hedge funds only recruit at Harvard or Stanford. You get the picture; but for firms that do recruit on campus, I like the odds at an elite school with the full scholarship. And that doesn't even get into the value of the cash money you'll save. If you end up with the same job, the extra money pretty awesome.
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that is a very good point that I didn't consider before. I guess it's similar to the "big fish/small fish" example, where if you can shine at an Elite school which has recruiters for your intended field, then it just may be better (for competitive and $$$ reasons) to go to the Elite school instead of a UE.

I'm definitely hoping I will have to make that sort of decision come January, haha! :P
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Maybe I'm in the minority, but unless Darden blows me away (through the campus visit and/or scholarships), UNC is my target school despite being lower-ranked in most publications.
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Kryzak, I'm sure you'll have some good options, although I don't know if UCLA is known for handing out big money.

Strategery
Maybe I'm in the minority, but unless Darden blows me away (through the campus visit and/or scholarships), UNC is my target school despite being lower-ranked in most publications.


Well, you didn't give any reasons for your assertion there, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will have better job opportunities at Darden than at UNC. I'm not denigrating UNC, but there's just no comparison. I can also say with a fair amount of certainty that Darden has a stronger, more tightly knit group of alumni and is known to have one of the strongest student communities of any business school. Also, given the fact that Darden has a substantially larger endowment (about 3 times bigger than UNC), you can expect the Darden brand to remain strong going forward.

For anyone interested, Darden's endowment is also bigger than those at Berkeley, UCLA, Cornell, Tuck and pretty much every other elite school (I think Yale is the exception). Darden is a smaller school, and so it's endowment per student is much higher. Not surprisingly, all of the ultra-elites have bigger endowments - money matters in this game because it allows schools to bring in top professors, offer scholarships to top students and fund projects and learning centers. What's a business school these days without a breathtaking facility? A fat endowment means that the schools will be able to adjust to changes and remain strong in the future.

Strategery didn't offer any support for his statement, and it's the type of comment that really sounds crazy without anything to back it up. If you love Chapel Hill, i understand that; but there's really not much doubt which school is a better investment for your time and money.
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pelihu
Kryzak, I'm sure you'll have some good options, although I don't know if UCLA is known for handing out big money.

Strategery
Maybe I'm in the minority, but unless Darden blows me away (through the campus visit and/or scholarships), UNC is my target school despite being lower-ranked in most publications.

Well, you didn't give any reasons for your assertion there, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will have better job opportunities at Darden than at UNC. I'm not denigrating UNC, but there's just no comparison. I can also say with a fair amount of certainty that Darden has a stronger, more tightly knit group of alumni and is known to have one of the strongest student communities of any business school. Also, given the fact that Darden has a substantially larger endowment (about 3 times bigger than UNC), you can expect the Darden brand to remain strong going forward.

For anyone interested, Darden's endowment is also bigger than those at Berkeley, UCLA, Cornell, Tuck and pretty much every other elite school (I think Yale is the exception). Darden is a smaller school, and so it's endowment per student is much higher. Not surprisingly, all of the ultra-elites have bigger endowments - money matters in this game because it allows schools to bring in top professors, offer scholarships to top students and fund projects and learning centers. What's a business school these days without a breathtaking facility? A fat endowment means that the schools will be able to adjust to changes and remain strong in the future.

Strategery didn't offer any support for his statement, and it's the type of comment that really sounds crazy without anything to back it up. If you love Chapel Hill, i understand that; but there's really not much doubt which school is a better investment for your time and money.


Pelihu failed to mention the overriding factor...do you really want to be a Tar Hole instead of a Wahoo?
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pelihu
Kryzak, I'm sure you'll have some good options, although I don't know if UCLA is known for handing out big money.

Strategery
Maybe I'm in the minority, but unless Darden blows me away (through the campus visit and/or scholarships), UNC is my target school despite being lower-ranked in most publications.

Well, you didn't give any reasons for your assertion there, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will have better job opportunities at Darden than at UNC. I'm not denigrating UNC, but there's just no comparison. I can also say with a fair amount of certainty that Darden has a stronger, more tightly knit group of alumni and is known to have one of the strongest student communities of any business school. Also, given the fact that Darden has a substantially larger endowment (about 3 times bigger than UNC), you can expect the Darden brand to remain strong going forward.

For anyone interested, Darden's endowment is also bigger than those at Berkeley, UCLA, Cornell, Tuck and pretty much every other elite school (I think Yale is the exception). Darden is a smaller school, and so it's endowment per student is much higher. Not surprisingly, all of the ultra-elites have bigger endowments - money matters in this game because it allows schools to bring in top professors, offer scholarships to top students and fund projects and learning centers. What's a business school these days without a breathtaking facility? A fat endowment means that the schools will be able to adjust to changes and remain strong in the future.

Strategery didn't offer any support for his statement, and it's the type of comment that really sounds crazy without anything to back it up. If you love Chapel Hill, i understand that; but there's really not much doubt which school is a better investment for your time and money.

Pelihu failed to mention the overriding factor...do you really want to be a Tar Hole instead of a Wahoo?

the question can also be rephrased as, do you want a full trophy case or an empty one?
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pelihu
Kryzak, I'm sure you'll have some good options, although I don't know if UCLA is known for handing out big money.

Strategery
Maybe I'm in the minority, but unless Darden blows me away (through the campus visit and/or scholarships), UNC is my target school despite being lower-ranked in most publications.

Well, you didn't give any reasons for your assertion there, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will have better job opportunities at Darden than at UNC. I'm not denigrating UNC, but there's just no comparison. I can also say with a fair amount of certainty that Darden has a stronger, more tightly knit group of alumni and is known to have one of the strongest student communities of any business school. Also, given the fact that Darden has a substantially larger endowment (about 3 times bigger than UNC), you can expect the Darden brand to remain strong going forward.

For anyone interested, Darden's endowment is also bigger than those at Berkeley, UCLA, Cornell, Tuck and pretty much every other elite school (I think Yale is the exception). Darden is a smaller school, and so it's endowment per student is much higher. Not surprisingly, all of the ultra-elites have bigger endowments - money matters in this game because it allows schools to bring in top professors, offer scholarships to top students and fund projects and learning centers. What's a business school these days without a breathtaking facility? A fat endowment means that the schools will be able to adjust to changes and remain strong in the future.

Strategery didn't offer any support for his statement, and it's the type of comment that really sounds crazy without anything to back it up. If you love Chapel Hill, i understand that; but there's really not much doubt which school is a better investment for your time and money.


I loved Chapel Hill and the college itself, and I was impressed by the renovations/construction they're finishing up to try and make a move up the rankings. On my visit, it felt like a place where I would fit in seamlessly. Part of the infatuation may be that it was my dream school for undergrad growing up but I chose to go elsewhere (stupidly).

I think you might be underrating UNC a bit. They seem to do pretty well in job placements and have a strong alumni network.
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Very interesting fact about the endowment, I didn't know that either. I do know the weakness of elite schools like Haas and UCLA has always been the money, which is why they announced a few months ago that they are raising tuition to the same level as private schools (for non-CA residents) to stay competitive in the hiring/recruiting top professors and maintaining facilities game.
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Just got back from some great outlet shopping and there are definitely some good insights here.

I was basically trying to pin down an answer to the question 'What's in a name?' And it really seems that there is a solid benefit to going to the better school.

I feel like the guy above because I had a lower ranked school as my #1 based on fit before any Elite schools came into the picture.

Well I'm excited to see if there are any more people out there with something to say on this topic. What a great decision to have to make though, right? lol
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Where are you getting the numbers for the endowment? Is this a number for the entire university? Or is there somewhere that actually breaks it down for the MBA program alone?

My two cents on this is, generally, the UE, or higher clustered programs will always win out in brand name recognition, except for specific cases. Of course, in my mind, a regional school that is ranked as an elite or trans elite may have similar recognition as an H/S/W. In my case, I want to find a job in the southeast after graduation and have no desire to live anywhere else. Thus, I believe, Emory has as much recognition in the Southeast for job placements as would an Elite and possibly even an ultra elite. Yes, Harvard is Harvard, but if I live in Atlanta, get a scholarship to Emory, and want to live in Atlanta after graduation, my Trans Elite school with a scholarship is as good, if not better than any other situation I could be in.
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Where are you getting the numbers for the endowment? Is this a number for the entire university? Or is there somewhere that actually breaks it down for the MBA program alone?

My two cents on this is, generally, the UE, or higher clustered programs will always win out in brand name recognition, except for specific cases. Of course, in my mind, a regional school that is ranked as an elite or trans elite may have similar recognition as an H/S/W. In my case, I want to find a job in the southeast after graduation and have no desire to live anywhere else. Thus, I believe, Emory has as much recognition in the Southeast for job placements as would an Elite and possibly even an ultra elite. Yes, Harvard is Harvard, but if I live in Atlanta, get a scholarship to Emory, and want to live in Atlanta after graduation, my Trans Elite school with a scholarship is as good, if not better than any other situation I could be in.

business schools have their own endowment. stats from 2005: https://www.geocities.com/topmbaprograms/Top5MBA.htm

don't know where else to find a consolidated list, but you can find the numbers individually pretty easily
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For simplicity's sake, let's assume that you don't want to be an IB "king of the universe", in which case going to an elite school would be the only option.

If you look at the elite schools, their average starting salary hovers around $100,000. From near elite down to near elite frontier the average starting salary is around $85-90,000. Let's say $88,000 just to split the difference. Placement rates at the lower ranked schools can be just as high as the elite schools. For example Rice has something like a 97% placement rate. Minnesota's placement rate is around the same. Assuming you are "average" and will make the average starting salary, in my opinion it makes perfect sense to go to the lower ranked school with a full ride.

If you go to an elite school with no scholarship, you will have to shoulder around $100,000 in debt after graduating. Taking 10 years to repay the loan at 8.25% interest, you will be paying out around $15,000 a year in loans, putting your salary right at the level of the near elite or lower graduate. In 10 years, after the loan is repaid, the name of the school on your resume will carry considerably less weight. In those 10 years, a lot can happen. Maybe the graduate from the lower ranked school can bust their hump and work their way into a high level position with other elite school graduates. Maybe the elite graduate will get fired. Who knows? Since the MBA's brand name depreciates severely after a few years out of school, why not take the bird in hand (scholarship) now? Taking the loan payments into account and assuming everyone is "average", the salaries of the elite school graduate with no scholarship and the lower ranked school graduate with a full scholarship are the same for the first few years after graduation. After that, it is up to the individual to make their own way by performing at a high level at their job.
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It's hard to make judgements without actually naming the exact schools.

We all have our own personal biases and rankings.

I would choose to go to the highest ranked (my own personal rankings) school that fit me well. I would not try to use money to sway that decision.

Because in the long run, that money will be forgotten. But choosing the wrong school will be remembered forever.
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Think of it this way and then make the decision.

Would you take a job because the starting salary is higher or would you take a job with more opportunities. Going to an ultra elite/elite is going to cost more but the opportunities you get are worth that cost. It may cost less up front to go to the near elite but it might not provide you the same options upon graduation.

Personally I wouldn't take a job based solely on the pay so I wouldn't pick a school based solely on the cost.
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Quote:
It may cost less up front to go to the near elite but it might not provide you the same options upon graduation.


Really? The lists of recruiters at the supposedly "inferior" schools look pretty much the same as the ones at the higher ranked schools. The only exception would be IB. If one wants to do something other than IB, than it doesn't seem like opportunities are lacking at a lower ranked school. Referring to Pelihu's "big fish in a small pond" analogy, if company X recruits at both elite and lower ranked schools, I think a hardworking "big fish" at a lower ranked school has just a good a chance as a "small fish" at an elite school.
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jessica83
For simplicity's sake, let's assume that you don't want to be an IB "king of the universe", in which case going to an elite school would be the only option.

If you look at the elite schools, their average starting salary hovers around $100,000. From near elite down to near elite frontier the average starting salary is around $85-90,000. Let's say $88,000 just to split the difference. Placement rates at the lower ranked schools can be just as high as the elite schools. For example Rice has something like a 97% placement rate. Minnesota's placement rate is around the same. Assuming you are "average" and will make the average starting salary, in my opinion it makes perfect sense to go to the lower ranked school with a full ride.

If you go to an elite school with no scholarship, you will have to shoulder around $100,000 in debt after graduating. Taking 10 years to repay the loan at 8.25% interest, you will be paying out around $15,000 a year in loans, putting your salary right at the level of the near elite or lower graduate. In 10 years, after the loan is repaid, the name of the school on your resume will carry considerably less weight. In those 10 years, a lot can happen. Maybe the graduate from the lower ranked school can bust their hump and work their way into a high level position with other elite school graduates. Maybe the elite graduate will get fired. Who knows? Since the MBA's brand name depreciates severely after a few years out of school, why not take the bird in hand (scholarship) now? Taking the loan payments into account and assuming everyone is "average", the salaries of the elite school graduate with no scholarship and the lower ranked school graduate with a full scholarship are the same for the first few years after graduation. After that, it is up to the individual to make their own way by performing at a high level at their job.


I agree with gmatclb and RR that you can't just take the numbers like that; but if you are going to point to numbers you should try to get them right. According to US News average salaries at elites are above $110k (Berkeley, NYU, Michigan, Darden, and Cornell are all above this mark); not the 100k that you point out. Difference in starting salary is probably about $20-30k on average over near elites; and given the greater opportunity stronger alumni networks at the better schools, the difference should persist if not increase over time. The other consideration is that at the elite and ultra-elite schools, you have the option of going for one of the higher paying jobs if you change your mind.

Look, as I stated above I think that the near elite schools are definitely worth the time and money you invest in them - especially if you get a steep discount (scholarship). I have no doubt that most people at these schools get good jobs. The difference at an elite school is that you'll have a lot more say into what job you actually take, in terms of job function, location, role, etc. At a lower ranked school you'll have fewer options and will more likely take what is available. Say I'm interested in a job in strategy in Boston (I'm not, but just pretend); I'm not sure if I'd be super happy if I had to take a job in supply chain management job in Cleveland, even at the same pay.
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