Need some Help

Question

Hi All,

I am an Indian applicant .. Male 26.. . I have a low gmat which falls just outside the 80% range of top 10 school..But i believe i can offset it with my first attempt Chartered Accountancy and Cost and Management Accountancy. Any one from India can know how difficult it is to clear a CA /ICWAI course @ 21 years... i have 7 years of experience in top I banks( incl. 3 yrs articleship) of which 1 yr is international... i can produce great essays, recommendation,loads of extra curriculars and community serviceand great leadership stories. I also have a decent GPA.

I have read everywhere on this forum that a low gmat can keep you out. I have tried to research a lot about Harvard, wharton and chicago..but unable to find any indian CA there, though i have spoken to few current students i guess there arent any CAs in their current batch or that they arent aware of. if any one knows any contact,please pass on

Do u guys suggest i can go ahead and apply to harvard, wharton and chicago inspite of popular belief of not to ...

regds

Sudhir

bsd_lover · Answer

Hi Sudhir to be bluntly honest - there is nothing especially distinguishing about a CA. Whilst you may not have met any Indian CAs at the schools - I can assure you that there will be tons around (and many who'd have applied). I know folks who already have a PGP from IIMs and are doing a second MBA at those schools. The competition for spots is INSANE.

My advice would be - dont risk it. Retake, get that score in the right range and then apply.

Good luck.

ozzie123 · Answer

Hello there sudhir,

There is a discussion similar to this one a while back about the significance of a CFA in one's application. The consensus answer is, not that significant. We all know how hard it is to be a CFA chater-holder (3 years minimum if you passed all the test the first try, and another W/E in related field). The conclusion is that adcom barely knows what CFA is really about and clearly they don't know the sacrifice that was put into it. I don't know much about CA/ICWAI course, but I imagine it wouldn't par much better than CFA in term of significant boost to your application.

But again, I know for a fact that Stanford accepted applicants with GMAT under 600 several years in a row so not all hope is lost. Good luck!

PS: Indian pools are very very competitive! Re-take the GMAT and defer application to next year perhaps?

sudhir18n · Answer

which means that all other parts of application is just a formality. .. no matter how much leadership stories u have.. how much involvement one has in community.. how diverse is his educational background.. how well he has done in his academics prior to Gmat... how excellent are ur essays and recommendations.. nothing matters... Unless one doesnt have a "GMAT" score ..isnt it what u guys wanna tell ?

and as bsd_lover says there wud be tons of CAs who wud have applied... is it that top schools dont like CAs from India... or schools think taking a Bcom guy is better than a CA? if CAs apply in "tons" i dont see any reason why they shudnt get into school . As far as IIM guys applying, its their personal wish to enhance their skills and need global exposure.. how wud tons of IIM A/B/C guys with 800 gmats discourage B schools to look at an applicant who is from a CA background.. I dont see any correclation..

If gmat club, pagalguy , testmagic or beat the gmat are any indicators of background of people applying to Bschools.. to be frank i havent seen more than 3-4 CAs so far applying for last 5-6 years .. i think just 1 from gmatclub..

filmcity · Answer

Sudhir, people here are trying to help you by providing you with a reality check. It seems in replies to your query, you wanted to read that you have a great chance at H/S/W.

If you think the replies dont reflect the reality and just opinion ( actually they are opinions only) then please go ahead and apply.

From my experience, I have only known one CA ( who applied to US B-school) with very good corporate banking experience with great brand name and he joined Stern in 2006. Please remember, in 2006 the competition was much saner than what it is right now.

sudhir18n · Answer

I am certainly not against people replying or giving opinions and i am happy they are being candid in their replies..... I am sorrie if i made u guys feel that way ... I only meant if some think there are tons of CAs applying every year ..then they shud also convert into few tens of admits atleast... I for one is sure that there arent any in Wharton and Chicago from what i spoke to adcoms and few current students... then if one minute we assume tons of CAs are applying ... why is that the Schools not taking them and they arent replecting in admits..? There shud be something wrong here ... that was my only concern .. and for the fact that CA is just an ordinary qualification ..i assure u no CA in India would agree to it ... and none who knows it real worth .. its by no means a easy qualification to clear in first attempt. i stretch my neck out and say on par with IIT and IAS. if not more.... ( in those cases u just need to clear the entrances unlike CA)...

My apologies if anyone thinks i was harsh....

Sudhir

My apologies if anyone thinks i was harsh....

Sudhir

bsd_lover · Answer

Hi Sudhir - don't misunderstand my last post - I am in no way implying that CA is an easy qualification to acquire (heck the only reason I survived accounting 101 in uni was because I had chicken pox during exams). Also, you're quite right in implying that there is no co-relation between CA and IIM - PGPs - but look at it from an ad-com's point of view (esp an adcom who's never been to India nor done any accounting before) - what is a safer bet ? A generic CA qualification v/s India's top management school (admit rate of 0.00000001% or something like that). I can guarantee that the IIM stuff stands out a LOT more than the CA stuff. Hence, you must distinguish yourself further. That is where your experiences, your stories will come in. One thing that you cannot afford to do is to fall behind (with a poor GMAT). You must at least hit the median 80%. There is another thread on this forum about people with low gmat and acceptance to top b-schools. You know how many people have posted success stories there ? ZERO . Check it out here - 103-t73999 Good luck.

Jerz · Answer

Sudhir - the other pieces of the application are not a formality. If you look at the various school threads here you'll see plenty of people with very high GMATs who have been dinged by top schools so clearly the schools care about more than GMAT. However, the competition is so high that there are plenty of applicants who have outstanding leadership stories, academic background, recommendations, etc. AND a high GMAT. So can you get into a top school with a GMAT below the 80% range? Of course - 10% of each class is below that range. But do your chances go up immensely if you retake the GMAT and get it up in to the range? You bet.

As for the value of the CA, remember that most adcoms are not MBAs nor do they come from business backgrounds. While they see people with various certifications all the time in the applicant pool, they won't always know what goes into achieving those certifications. Especially for a US-based school, it would be easy to assume that a CA is the same as a US CPA, when from the sounds of it the Indian CA is much tougher to get.

rhyme · Answer

Without knowing anything at all about the CA (so in other words, take my word with a big grain of salt), it sounds like a fairly standard exam for people in that field, similar to, say to a Project Management Certification for a project manager, or say a CCIE for an network engineer, or an MCSE or whatever. If that's the case, I would argue that, while interesting (and probably impressive) it isn't that distinguishing.

sudhir18n · Answer

Not exactly Rhyme... it is completely different .. and by no means a standard examination ... people passing in first attempt are just 0.5 -1% out of some 50000+ students appearing in the exam ... I bet none of us would have seen a CA posting his profile saying he is selected at a top school... thats my whole worry ...

If Indian CAs arent applying . which may be the case as there are very very few students clearing it in first attempt and by the time most of them clear the exam .. they are 24-25 and then u need 3/4 years of solid workex.. so it makes all the more difficult to manage a 2 year MBA .. and hence prefer a 1 year MBA.. i have lots of firends in ISB India( ISB has more than 60-70 Indian CAs) and LSB ( 3-4 friends)

So i believe it will definitely be a diversity from a lot of other co -applicant from India who are from IT and/or already have a MBA from india( IIMs). If the school clearly looks for diversity .. i have also done my ICWAI ... which has just 40000 members all over the world in last 60 years of its history ..( a pass percentage of 1 in India)..

i mean .. if the adcoms havea holistic view .. i believe all this just definitely be enuf to prove i can easily with stand the academic rigour of an MBA. more over wharton , stanford and harvard have accepted Indian CA as post graduation for entry into their doctoral program and they many faculties who are CA and CMA from India.. so they not knowing abt CA and CMA is little unbelieveable..

I hope adcoms look for the whole applications and not just a gmat number.. i bet if they do so .. i will get an inteview call.. with my varied experience and achievements... I can just hope for that... and will be the first one to post on the low gmat success thread...

the very fact that none of the CA are there in such a huge and popular forum proves the quantity of the applicants.. or may be CAs dont like to post their profiles

Sudhir

msday · Answer

Sudhir, in my view, the GMAT is the first thing adcoms look at in order to ascertain whether you can withstand the academic rigor of their program. Judging by your CA accomplishments, I am going to guess that your GMAT math score is probably fine, but that your verbal score is pretty low. Even if they look past your low overall GMAT score, they will not look past your uneven score split. Also, adcoms might be unfamiliar with the CA (possibly), and rather than putting in the effort to understand what an accomplishment it is, they might just move to the next candidate because that's the easier path.

That said, I do hope you break through and post a success story on the low GMAT thread. It'd be good for everyone's morale.

That said, I do hope you break through and post a success story on the low GMAT thread. It'd be good for everyone's morale.

sudhir18n · Answer

its actually more or less even

filmcity · Answer

Sudhir, I would be very happy if you get in. But a serious piece if advice, retake the GMAT if you can.

I think, you are underestimating the desi competition. Getting a top 200 rank in IIT-Jee is no low achievement. But not all of them make it to top 5 ot 10 b-schools. You are from accounting, you may hate to hear this, but that is not an outstandingly interesting work-exp you are bringing to the table. OK, there are very few people who clear CA very first time ( I know that, and congrats to you for that). But , so? How that adds value to a B-school class, or make you competitive against the top econ grad with high end quant experience and great GMAT or the IIT guy with deep ocean oil exploration background and again high GMAT as well. And remember, in the schools you have mentioned, you will be competing against the Indian Legacy admissions as well!

I would rather take the test and make myself competitive instead of convincing people in forum abt how tough accounting can be ( we know that is tough and one of the dreaded first year course in MBA).

rhyme · Answer

Thanks for correcting me. Clearly its quite the test, but I'm still not sure its of such differentiation. The CFA is also quite demanding (and arguably more rigorous than an MBA frankly) and it certainly doesn't replace the GMAT.

rjacobs · Answer

Hi Sudhir,

Look at it this way: If you can produce great essays, have a good GPA, etc. etc., then you're clearly a smart dude. So what's stopping you from just retaking the GMAT and getting a higher score? I know studying is a pain (believe me, I know!), but it's much less of a pain than the Accountancy course, and it will probably give your application a much bigger boost.

In sum, increasing your GMAT score is less work for a greater payoff. Plus, then the AdCom will say "Wow, this guy knew what he needed to improve, and he really studied the second time - he is committed and not afraid to work hard."

sudhir18n · Answer

its not that i am afraid writing gmat... or delaying it.. i have already scheduled it in jan end ... i am for sure gonna score 670+ .. but will that change the whole idea of adcom? is R3 good bet ? i was thinking abt all this and thought to apply in R2.

what do u guys say....

what do u guys say....

msday · Answer

R3 is NOT a good bet, from what I've heard from admissions folks and people on this forum. As a traditional Indian applicant, you are almost certainly headed to Dingsville if you apply R3. Scoring >700 and then applying next year would be your best bet.

FN · Answer

there are a lot of factors in R3..everyone says dont apply to R3..true..dont apply if you cant really distinguish yourself from others by a far margin..meaning..have the prime minister of India call the dean at harvard..then you are DISTINGUISHED and apply R3..

if you are a US citizen you have a better chance than an international student in R3. If you have a wow factor in your essays then apply cause basically you are competing against other R1 and R2 waitlists..and your wow will overcome those borderline waitlistees..

just my 2 cents..i am in the same boat as you are.. however i am actually making an effort to get in touch with Prime Minister Singh...............JUST kidding..i am still debating if I should apply R2 and update adcom of the new score..

my only hope for R3 is that i am a US citizen...secondly i represent a very minority group albeit from india but we are a minority sect..so i am different shade of brown

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