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505-555 (Easy)|   Evaluate Argument|                                    
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jabhatta2
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake 30 Aug 2022, 16:06
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^^ avigutman

So with that distinction, if blind people [Group 1, Group 2, Group 3] -- all of their melatonin levels change in response to changes in exposure to light and darkness

How does this strengthen the conclusion that the pineal gland DOES NOT recieve information through the visual cortex

In the case of Group 2 and of Group 3 -- the visual cortex's are working
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake Updated on: 30 Aug 2022, 16:57
Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 30 Aug 2022, 16:50.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 30 Aug 2022, 16:57, edited 1 time in total.
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^^^

avigutman :

actually i think i figured one mistake. I dont think the distinction (Within the groups) makes sense.

Group 2 and Group 3 -- most likely also have lesions in the visual cortex.

Whatever the cause of the blindless (birth defect or sports injury) --> i think Group 2 and Group 3 also will have lesions in the visual cortex.
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jabhatta2
avigutman :

actually i think i figured one mistake. I dont think the distinction (Within the groups) makes sense.

Group 2 and Group 3 -- most likely also have lesions in the visual cortex.

Whatever the cause of the blindless (birth defect or sports injury) --> i think Group 2 and Group 3 also will have lesions in the visual cortex.
Show more
Right - unless we are told otherwise, we should read (B) in the context of the argument, which is entirely about people who are totally blind due to lesions in the visual cortex of the brain. The mistake you made here reminds me of another post of yours, on another problem:
jabhatta2
Other than ground-based telescopes and space telescopes -- how do you know there is not a 3rd type of telescope (the argument never mentioned -- space telescopes and ground telescopes are the only two types of telescopes)

There could be under-ground / under-water telescopes (i dont believe an Underground telescope falls under the category of a 'ground-based telescope' -- an Underground /Under-water telescope are both well, under the ground)

-- Here is an article talking about under-ground telescopes here
-- Read about Underwater water telescopes, scanning the sky below : Based on this article, under ground telescopes are a thing
-- Here is another video talking about Russia deploying telescopes -- under the sea (lake baikal specifically - Watch here


Perhaps under water / under ground telescopes are being used for Detailed spectral analyses specifically- we can't say

Under-water / under-ground telescopes may also suffer the same issues as ground telescopes when it comes to distortion by the Earth's atmoshphere BUT Under-water / under-ground telescopes perhaps are being used for Detailed spectral analyses - we dont know !
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If neither the argument nor the answer choice suggests there might be other categories, it's unwise for us to start imagining them, jabhatta2.
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake 31 Aug 2022, 05:46
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Hi avigutman - the conclusion has a negative and this is really throwing me off.

Quote:

.....So the neural pathway by which the pineal gland receives information from the eye probably does not pass through the visual cortex.
Show more


Do you recommend re-phrasing "negative conclusions" to a 'positive conclusion' ?

Quote:

.....So the neural pathway by which the pineal gland receives information from the eye probably goes through some other path (other than the visual cortex)
Show more
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake 31 Aug 2022, 06:30
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jabhatta2
Do you recommend re-phrasing "negative conclusions" to a 'positive conclusion' ?

Quote:

.....So the neural pathway by which the pineal gland receives information from the eye probably goes through some other path (other than the visual cortex)
Show more
While your rephrase is technically correct, I don't think I'd recommend this as a strategy for the GMAT. It feels to me like a bandaid solution that fails to address the root cause, allows you to get away with doing less reasoning, and is likely to cost you more time and mental effort than is appropriate for the GMAT. That said, if you find that it works well for you and doesn't take too much time, go for it!
My recommendation is to instead use reasoning to help you digest the meaning of the sentence. Why would the authors conclude that the neural pathway (by which the pineal gland receives information from the eye) probably does not pass through the visual cortex?
Your ability to answer that question will determine success or failure on this problem, and my worry is that having to rephrase the question in the way that you did might indicate that you're not fully engaging with the question of why the authors came to that conclusion.
Again, if my worry is misplaced, go for the rephrasing. It's technically correct, jabhatta2.
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake Updated on: 31 Aug 2022, 10:08
Originally posted by jabhatta2 on 31 Aug 2022, 08:55.
Last edited by jabhatta2 on 31 Aug 2022, 10:08, edited 22 times in total.
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Hi avigutman - the screenshot below shows the sequence of events. I have marked it with [1] through [6].

Hypothesis : Amongst blind people, (4) is recieving information about (1) NOT THROUGH (3)

Test - i was hoping for a test to check between the relationship between (1) and (3) or maybe (1) and (4) {[1] and [3] is the best IMO}

Those would be better experiments (do you concur ?)

So a test like :

Quote:

Test Group : blind people (With successful sleep wake cycles)
Goal of test : test the relationship between [1] and [3] amongst the target group
Experiment - checking if their visual cortex's respond to changes in light and darkness.
Show more

OR
Quote:

Test Group : blind people (With successful sleep wake cycles)
Goal of test : test the relationship between [1] and [4] amongst the target group
Experiment - checking if their pineal gland responds to changes in light and darkness.
Show more



Tests like the ones aboves are the best to test the hypothesis

Option (B) seems to be checking the relationship between (1) and (5), within the test group

But doing this, you leave big gaps

Just because (1) and (5) are seen among blind people,
- can i really say (3) does not play a part in sending information to (4) ? [which is the hypothesis]

I CANT

Maybe, within the test group, [3] is getting information about [1] through the another organ (Say through touch or feel - it gets cooler when the lights dim, hence you can feel the change in lights)

Once [3] gets information about [1], then [3] is then sending the info to [4], amongst blind people

- can i really say (4) must be causing (5) -- I cant. Maybe among the blind, (4) does not cause (5) at all.

Many gaps if you ask me, testing the relation between [1] and [5]
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake 31 Aug 2022, 10:59
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jabhatta2
Hi avigutman - the screenshot below shows the sequence of events. I have marked it with [1] through [6].

Hypothesis : Amongst blind people, (4) is recieving information about (1) NOT THROUGH (3)

Test - i was hoping for a test to check between the relationship between (1) and (3) or maybe (1) and (4) {[1] and [3] is the best IMO}

Those would be better experiments (do you concur ?)

So a test like :

Quote:

Test Group : blind people (With successful sleep wake cycles)
Goal of test : test the relationship between [1] and [3] amongst the target group
Experiment - checking if their visual cortex's respond to changes in light and darkness.
Show more
To me, this seems to go against the premise: "people who are totally blind due to lesions in the visual cortex of the brain." I take that to mean that their visual cortex is unable to detect (1). Do you have a different understanding, jabhatta2?
jabhatta2

OR
Quote:

Test Group : blind people (With successful sleep wake cycles)
Goal of test : test the relationship between [1] and [4] amongst the target group
Experiment - checking if their pineal gland responds to changes in light and darkness.
Show more
Sure, this would be great, but I suspect that the only way to check this (I'm not a scientist) is to check the melatonin levels (in other words, maybe we can only check (4) by evaluating (5).
jabhatta2

Option (B) seems to be checking the relationship between (1) and (5), within the test group

But doing this, you leave big gaps

Just because (1) and (5) are seen among blind people,
- can i really say (3) does not play a part in sending information to (4) ? [which is the hypothesis]

Maybe, within the test group, [3] is getting information about [1] through the another organ (Say through touch or feel - it gets cooler when the lights dim, hence you can feel the change in lights)

Once [3] gets information about [1], then [3] is then sending the info to [4], amongst blind people
Show more
Again, my understanding is that [3] is completely disabled.

jabhatta2
- can i really say (4) must be causing (5) -- I cant. Maybe among the blind, (4) does not cause (5) at all.

Many gaps if you ask me, testing the relation between [1] and [5]
Show more
So you're saying that even if we have the information that answer choice (B) offers us, we still wouldn't be able to PROVE the hypothesis. Okay, sure. But that wasn't the question. The question was: which of the five answer choices would be most useful for purposes of evaluating the argument.
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake 31 Aug 2022, 14:03
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jabhatta2
Hi avigutman - the screenshot below shows the sequence of events. I have marked it with [1] through [6].

Hypothesis : Amongst blind people, (4) is recieving information about (1) NOT THROUGH (3)

Test - i was hoping for a test to check between the relationship between (1) and (3) or maybe (1) and (4) {[1] and [3] is the best IMO}

Those would be better experiments (do you concur ?)

So a test like :

Quote:

Test Group : blind people (With successful sleep wake cycles)
Goal of test : test the relationship between [1] and [3] amongst the target group
Experiment - checking if their visual cortex's respond to changes in light and darkness.
To me, this seems to go against the premise: "people who are totally blind due to lesions in the visual cortex of the brain." I take that to mean that their visual cortex is unable to detect (1). Do you have a different understanding, jabhatta2?
Show more

Hmm avigutman - the yellow DID suprise me.

Just because people are blind because of lesions in the visual cortex, i didnt think it was a premise that [3] cannot talk to [1]

In fact, If [3] cannot detect [1] as per the premise - i cant think of how to weaken the hypothesis /conclusion (in the red font above)

In order to weaken the hypothesis (red font above) - we need something that says

Actually [4] IS probably getting information about [1] THROUGH [3]
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake 31 Aug 2022, 14:44
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jabhatta2
If [3] cannot detect [1] as per the premise - i cant think of how to weaken the hypothesis /conclusion (in the red font above)

In order to weaken the hypothesis (red font above) - we need something that says

Actually [4] IS probably getting information about [1] THROUGH [3]
Show more
It seems that you are taking for granted that the pineal gland receives information from the eye, jabhatta2? I don’t think that fact was provided as a premise

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avigutman
jabhatta2
If [3] cannot detect [1] as per the premise - i cant think of how to weaken the hypothesis /conclusion (in the red font above)

In order to weaken the hypothesis (red font above) - we need something that says

Actually [4] IS probably getting information about [1] THROUGH [3]
It seems that you are taking for granted that the pineal gland receives information from the eye, jabhatta2? I don’t think that fact was provided as a premise

Posted from my mobile device
Show more

hmm are you referring with your above statement - are you referring to blind people only or regular people only or both ?

for Regular people - i thought it was a fact that pineal glands ARE GETTING information from the eyes, that was not up for debate when it comes to regular people

I think the main issue is -- i am not clear, what is it that i am evaluating

Is it

(a) Do Pineal Glands govern sleep cycles (for blind and regular people)

OR

(b) Do Pineal Glands get info about [1] thorough [3] (for blind people only) - evaluate the sequence of events specifically
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Normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake 31 Aug 2022, 19:00
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jabhatta2
for Regular people - i thought it was a fact that pineal glands ARE GETTING information from the eyes, that was not up for debate when it comes to regular people
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Agreed.
jabhatta2
I think the main issue is -- i am not clear, what is it that i am evaluating

Is it

(a) Do Pineal Glands govern sleep cycles (for blind and regular people)

OR

(b) Do Pineal Glands get info about [1] thorough [3] (for blind people only) - evaluate the sequence of events specifically
Show more
You're not evaluating either of those things. You're presented with a surprising phenomenon (the surprise is indicated by the word "Nonetheless" at the beginning of the 2nd sentence of the argument) which demands an explanation, and you're evaluating the validity of one particular explanation.

So... How is it that many people who are totally blind due to lesions in the visual cortex of the brain easily maintain a 24-hour sleep-wake cycle?

That's the surprising phenomenon that demands an explanation. Wait, why is it surprising? Well, because normally, the pineal gland governs a person's sleep-wake cycle by secreting melatonin in response to the daily cycle of light and darkness as detected by the eye. That's clearly not happening for people who are totally blind due to lesions in the visual cortex of the brain.

Can you think of any explanations, jabhatta2? I can think of a few:
(i) these blind people are surrounded by non-blind people, and they just go to sleep and wake up at the same time as the non-blind people
(ii) these blind people have smart clocks that signal audibly when it's time to go to sleep and wake up
(iii) these blind people have developed super hearing to compensate for their lack of sight, and they go to sleep when they hear the hustle bustle of their surroundings quiet down (and they wake up when the hustle bustle resumes)
.
.
.
(ix) the neural pathway by which the pineal gland receives information from the eye does not pass through the visual cortex
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