Part-Time Stern Vs. Full Time Schools

Question

I have a question that has been stressing me a lot. The basic question is: at what point does a Stern part-time MBA outrank a full-time MBA, in terms of being a better option. For example, I do believe that going below the top 20 full-time b-schools I will be better off with Stern part-time (living in NY that is). Now, I know there are a lot of factors in this question, but I am wondering if everyone could review the ones that I lay out and let me know of their perspective. Since this forum has a lot of knowledgeable members who are also very encouraging (which is rare to find in business school) 8-)

. Also, what is the general opinion on this matter? My major predicament is, if it’s worth it for me to pursue applying for a full-time MBA where my chances are slim in getting into top ten schools, and still not guaranteed for the top 15. So do I draw the line and say, if I don’t think I can get into say Cornell/Duke, then I might as well do Stern Part-time where I have a good chance of getting in. I would prefer not to waste a year applying, find out I don’t get into the schools that I like, and then decide to apply for Stern part-time the next semester. Or does Full-Time MBA always trump anything part-time. I mean there has to be a point at the full-time rankings where the #1 part-time school outranks it. Below is a list of factors that I am taking into account for this decision: 1) The first question would be, what schools am I considering applying to: Target Schools Preferred: NYU Columbia Safeties or better word Mid-Range: Cornell Duke What other safeties do I add? Ross, CMU, University of Virginia Stretch (for fun) MIT Northwestern 2) Credentials: The next question is why I think I can’t get into my preferred or top mid-range schools. Well here is my bio: I am 25 years old (American-born/Indian Nationality), and been working at a large financial services firm/IB (i.e. Morgan Stanley, Citi, JP Morgan, Merrill) for 3 years as a Business Systems Analyst in technology division. After working for 2 years I was promoted to associate. I have coordinated a cross-functional team for a system conversion with a market value of $14 billion. I was then asked to join a top-notch global project, a huge initiative by the CIO of my division, which will greatly improve investment systems. My GMAT score is a 700, but the first time I took it I got a 590. I have seen from many places that only your higher score counts. My GPA is a low 2.9, but for a degree in Computer Science from Polytechnic University (Brooklyn, NY). I have also heard that schools take into account the difficulty of your school and major when looking at GPAs. So obviously, a CS degree from a difficult engineering school weighs more than a liberal arts degree from a general school. However, I believe due to my competitive demographic (Indian), location (NY) and a tough 2009 admissions year; I don’t have a great chance. The next list of factors, are general questions I need to ask when considering full-time versus part-time. 3) Career Placement/Transition This is probably the biggest advantage of a full-time MBA. The ability to take an internship from a large company and then get a full-time position. Now, I am doing technology work in a big financial services firm. So If I do want to pursue a career transition, it will greatly beneficial to pursue full-time. However, I am not sure if I would like to change my career or not. I prefer to start school and see how I like finance and then make my decision. Also, I think the full-time advantage (correct me if I’m wrong) is only worth wile for students who get that big I-banking, sales trading or consulting job. However, I am not sure if I will even be able to score that, (I think I would only prefer sales/trading). So, what happens to the rest of the students, with the non top-notch jobs? Do those jobs/companies really require the full-time placement? Or for those jobs, can you do a mild-transition from a top part-time program. 4) Financials: Now my company will only sponsor a very small amount, so it’s not like it’s a free ride for me. However, obviously, I will get to keep my job and that salary will be very helpful. My salary going in will be much higher than the average pre-MBA salary (this year it’s 80K, my 2009 when I would start a full-time MBA it should be like 88K), and in fact, just based on base salary, my salary should be the same in 2 years as the average starting salary of a top 15 school. Bonuses will not be as close, (only around 15-25K). This is obviously assuming my rate goes up as has done in the past. However, being in technology, my salary is expected to top off at a certain point. While with financial roles, salaries are expected to grow a lot faster, and to a much higher amount. The other financial conditions aren’t a major concern for me; at this point I don’t have a mortgage or huge bills to pay. But I am planning on getting married within 1-2 years, and don’t know If I should risk giving up such a good job. I have to consider what type of job I will get graduating from a mid-range school. 5) Experience: The experience of a full-time MBA is the one factor that cannot be replaced by part-time. Students at part-time, rush to their classes after work, and then rush home after class. (at least that’s what I have heard about Stern’s part-time) They go to some networking events, but miss most of the seminars and speeches that are during the day. However, as a full-time student, your entire day is dedicated to school. You also get to spend a lot more time with your peers and build stronger networks. This is a once in a life-time experience, after that its work for the rest of your life :cry:

. However, are those two years (noting that it might be from a non top school ) worth more than giving up your salary, leaving the girlfriend, friends, and family? 6) Location I am a complete New Yorker, and would love to stay here. I don’t mind going away to school for 2 years, but will come back to work here anyway. So being that is it safer to go to a Stern part-time which is in the heart of NY or take my chances in a different state, come back and get a job in NY. 7) Timing If I pursue full-time, I would not start until the September 2009 semester. If I go for part-time I want to start September 2008 (applications are due may 15). So from both routes, I should finish by 2011, maybe a little bit later for part-time. However, if I don’t get into a decent full-time school, I will have to apply to stern part-time, for the semester after (Jan 2010) and take at least 3 years from that point. The options boil down to: 1) Just go ahead and apply to full-time. a. Best case I get into NYU/Columbia full-time, in which there is no question of part versus full, and I would probably curse myself for even wasting all this time worrying about what I should have done. b. Or I get into schools like Cornell/Duke/Ross, and depending on the schools, I have to make a decision at that point if I still want to do full-time. I mean in a year from now, I will have a better perspective of: do I want to change careers, how the schools I got into are with those careers, can I take 2 years off, etc. i. But, if I decide to do part-time then, does it look bad to Stern that I already applied to the full-time program and am now applying to part-time? I also wasted a year! 2) Go ahead and apply part-time, probably get in, see if I like Finance, and if I do, try to shift careers during my MBA. My biggest fear is making the wrong decision and regretting it for the rest of my life. I appreciate everyone’s time reading this and I hope it wasn’t too boring and repetitive.

Beagles · Answer

You've clearly given this a lot of thought, I'm not sure there's a lot more that any of us can tell you. If you haven't gone to an NYU Stern Langone Open House, you absolutely need to do that...

It sounds to me like you want to go to a top full-time program. By all means, if you want to, you should do it. I'm of the opinion that if your life circumstances can accommodate going to a full-time program, you should probably go to a full-time program.

I do not think you will find that gaining acceptance to NYU Stern's part-time program to be a lot easier than getting into other full-time programs in the Top 20. Stern's P/T program is immensely popular with professionals living and working NYC (and it's a big city, so there are a lot of them!). Admittance isn't automatic.

I think the general motivation for a p/t MBA is the financial consideration. For some people, employer sponsorship of a considerable amounts of the tuition is the key motivator. At a place like Stern that's $90,000 worth of additional benefits, before even considering the salary that you will continue to earn. You've said that your employer isn't going to pay much tuition, so your cost is really going to be the lost salary over the two years you'd go to a full-time program. It will take you a while to earn that salary back after graduating from a full-time program, but for me, the cost would be worth it. It might not be for you.

As for your job, I wouldn't stay there just because you're getting married in 2 years. No job is forever, and you (I assume) have no guarantee that you'll still have your job in 2 years. Now, if you think your job is great, and you love it, and you think you're gaining skills that will be of use to you in achieving your long-term career goals, by all means, that's a good reason to stay and consider a part-time program

There are sacrifices in selecting either a full-time or part-time program. I chose part-time because it made sense for me, but if I were in your situation, I'd definitely be looking for a full-time program...

prtfullconfused · Answer

Beagles, thanks for responding. Your opinion is that if your life circumstances can accommodate a full-time program, you probably should go for it. Would you still agree even if I am not completely sure what I want to do post-MBA? Isn’t it better to hedge my chances by going part-time and having my job as a back-up in case I do want to stick within technology? Or since my life won't be too affected by pursuing full-time, it still serves to do so?

You had also said that gaining acceptance to stern part-time is not that much easier than a top 20 full-time school. However with the current economy and many people losing their jobs, isn't it tougher now than ever? I don’t think part-time applications have increased greatly due to the current economic situation. If I applied for full-time, it would be for Fall 2009, will it be better by then?

Beagles · Answer

Yes, I think if your financial and family commitments allow it, a full-time MBA is the way to go. I think that's especially true if you don't know what you want to do post-MBA. If you think it's at all possible that you'll want a change in careers, a full-time program is much more suited to help you explore your options and make that change a reality.

As I said before, unless you're 100% sure your job is 100% secure, your current job isn't a "back-up" option. For all you know your position could be eliminated tomorrow (btw, I hope it isn't!). If staying at your job is going to help you achieve your long-term goals then I think there is a career benefit to staying there and choosing a P/T program. Otherwise it's just the fact that you'd have to give up your salary to go to a full-time program. I'm not saying that giving up 2 years of salary is an easy decision, but it is the primary decision you have to make.

I haven't studied the trends, but doesn't the same logic you're using for saying that F/T enrollment is going up apply equally well to P/T enrollment? I think you're a perfect example. You're trying to do a P/T program because you're concerned about walking away from a job in a down economy...I don't think you are the only person who's feeling that same pressure.

I think it's impossible to predict with any certainly how the economy over the next 2-3 years will impact you personally. You have to decide whether the risk of walking away from your job and going to school full-time is something you're willing to do. None of us can make that decision for you.

You've still got plenty of time to figure out what you want to do. I think you need to schedule campus visits (during the semester) to your Top 5 F/T schools and then also plan to attend an info session (and maybe even sit in on a class) for Stern's P/T program. The F/T experience is a completely different animal than the P/T experience and you should try to evaluate each of them before making such an important decision.

prtfullconfused · Answer

People have stressed to me that you should not do a full-time MBA if you don't know close to exactly what you want. It is only suited for the people who know what their short/long term goals are and what they want from the MBA. Hence the essays. Also, that you don't really have time to explore your options because, within a month of starting your first semester you have to start internship recruitment. As in, choose a field (i-banking, sales/trading, consulting, etc) and start attending seminars and preparing to apply. I am in no way trying to argue against you, I am just telling you what I heard, so I can get your experienced feedback. :-D

I would love to know that an MBA heavily involves exploring your options. Actually, that's one of my biggest problems right now. If I apply part-time, I want to do it for September 2008. Applications are due May 15th. I only want to wait a year if I pursue full-time. Thanks again for spending your time responding.

Beagles · Answer

You can't judge whether you should go F/T or P/T based strictly on the reputation/ranking of the schools you might attend. Find the place that's going to give you the education and experience you want. Does it matter if Stern's P/T program is more highly regarded than some other F/T program if a P/T program isn't the right place for you?

Ask yourself, and answer... "Why do I want to get an MBA?" Review your answer. If your reasons for getting an MBA align with a P/T MBA at NYU, then by all means, go for it and apply for May 15. The Langone program is excellent and we're lucky to have it as an option. If your reasons point you toward a F/T MBA, then I think you should look at the Top F/T programs.

I fear that you're getting close to "analysis paralysis", which is never a good place to be. You've clearly done a lot of thinking and research on this. Trust yourself.

prtfullconfused · Answer

One more question, do you think it would look bad to the admissions committee if I had applied to full-time, didn't get in, and now (the semester after) am applying to part-time? Thanks!

Beagles · Answer

Not necessarily. It's just something you should address in one or two of your essays.

You'll want to hammer home the point of why the P/T makes sense for you now as opposed to why you applied to the F/T program last time.

3underscore · Answer

I think a few of the points you are concerned about are true about FT programs - especially about finding the career you need to move into. However, I think the offset is that maybe this is a pressure that you need, otherwise you might never make the change. Recruiting for the summer starts quickly (term starts September, first recruiting starts October - at least for IB/C and some bigger Marketing & Corp Fin, some Gen Management as well) so you need to get an idea where you want to go quickly. There is the possibility to change after the summer - I know some MBA2's who have done exactly that - but it isn't necessarily easy. However, there are people I know who have changed their mind, and they recruit more boutique. S+T for one isn't a route that guarantees offers (IB similar, but not quite so harsh in numbers, at least as a %) so there are opportunities buy side, in HF and in Boutique IB advisory, M&A coming through now, and both people who have changed their mind or a re-fixing are looking at those. The pressure on the first wave of recruiting is heavy, but the chances of getting the ideal Bulge Bracket firm are not as high as you might wish they are, even for the most focussed. I feel that a lot of people benefited from this pressure to decide, as it is something most would rather procrastinate on. We will see how the wash comes out after the summer.

As for the difference in the course, I don't think there is quite the atmosphere on the PT (not surprising), and they don't get some of the star professors at Stern (Damodaran, Silber (not sure, but think not), they do have the Engel class), but they do take an awful lot of classes with the FT class - at least on the weekday night courses, and some of the weekend as well. This is where Stern's PT gets its real value, and for the FT as well, because they can scale up the classes a little in number and breadth to allow more niche classes. Virtually every FT MBA1 I know is doing at least one class that is with the Langone students. I will be able to tell how this affects the curve only later in the semester, but you get directly pitched against students who have the possibility to study during the day (but probably don't). All the same, it points to the teaching being the same, though the learning opportunities are obviously reduced, or you are very, very tired.

I think so long as your essays fit with your wish to go FT/PT that the school will not be too concerned. They are pretty understanding, and more driven by you knowing, or at least expressing, what you plan to do. Maybe speak to them and ask - they should be pretty good about it.

Ozmba · Answer

Can the PT'ers attend all the networking events? or they are handed a different badge and barred entry?

kidderek · Answer

https://www.mbablogs.businessweek.com/Stern-part-time-MBA-recruiting/archive/2007/09/21/1q6a7owde4dvn

buyer beware

3underscore · Answer

I can't be bothered posting on the businessweek thread, but the idea that FT students don't have to go through a sequence of workshops and events to be considered for on campus recruiting is a complete fabrication. We all have to do it, and worse it is normally on a Friday morning when we have been drinking to 3am. I jest, but the fact is that there is a very formal structure for any on campus recruiting for FT students, and - though a bigger commitment to PT students relatively - the aim is to make sure that people don't screw up Stern recruiting as a whole, which is a pretty fair concern. I am concerned that PT students recruiting think they know better than people who have left jobs to attend FT school (it almost seems like FT students must be less versed, or again, that they haven't actually done any research) - we all think we know how to write a resume, and then you quickly find out why you don't when you do the workshops. People speaking from a position of no knowledge and general indignation for having to do something they haven't really aren't helpful to tell you whether something is beneficial, or should be required.

I honestly understand that it is more of a stress for PT students, but they can hardly expect otherwise. Person doing MBA + job + recruiting find themself with more commitment than someone without a job? This is easier than the most simple of GMAT algebra questions. Yet this is the choice they make, and as an offset they don't have the debt load for doing so.

I would add that engaging in recruitment as a PT student would be very difficult. There would undoubtedly be clashes between the timetable of events and classes (especially evening students). Then again, if the recruitment was daytime, they would be at work... it is a really difficult thing to measure.

I don't know if PT students are blocked from recruiting events. I doubt they can be. I don't think they have different badges - I have met one or two at events and they didn't have badges (one I wish did, as he was really blowing up badly). The fact will always remain that PT MBA's are somewhat less focussed on helping you switch jobs, for the simple matters of sponsorship and time commitment.

prtfullconfused · Answer

ozmba, an article from BW addressing exactly what you asked.
https://www.businessweek.com/bschools/co ... han=search

I have also heard that id cards are different for part-time students, as this is how they differentiate students during the career fairs.

3underscore, I agree with you regarding bw forums, just something about them make it ridiculous.

Ozmba · Answer

thanks.. it exactly answered what i am looking for

3underscore · Answer

You see - this part, that they are trying to make controversial in the BusinessWeek article, is the standard process to be allowed to participate in campus recruiting at Stern, bar the last bit (though we may have had to do that as well, it just didn't involve any brain processes). Maybe the first is harsher, though I am uncertain - the sign up list, attendance and other elements is part of a structure of respect for companies recruiting, and we do swipe IDs into on campus recruiting (this also gives the recruiter an attendee list). I may not go as far as to describe it as a red herring, but it is definitely scarlet colored and smells like a fish.

I should add that the process they put people through, especially the mocks and resume work, is really very valuable - I would recommend PT students to do that bit for their own value (it's free, and it is designed to improve you).

It does point to a big downside of the PT program, in that recruiting for FT only is minimal across banks - they try to recruit fully from the summer associate class, and they are very clear of those intentions when first on campus. I know that many banks do return, but the numbers are heavily reduced. Yet it makes sense that PT students cannot recruit for summer associate positions. I cannot fathom why you would do a PT MBA and not have a job, so leave would be impossible.

kidderek · Answer

I've always thought that if there was a demand for PT students, then the companies would demand it. I can't imagine Stern or any other PT school denying a match made in heaven between PTers & companies seeking them.

vinviper · Answer

I think networking within classmates can make up for the lack of campus recruitment. But its an uphill battle.

Beagles · Answer

I believe this is true, and Stern says as much. If an employer wants to meet with P/T students, Stern will allow them to meet with P/T students. However, if a company does not want to meet with P/T students, Stern does not require them to do so.

kidderek · Answer

It's a definite plus. You'll be classmates with people working for companies/industires that you might be targeting. However, if campus recruitment is a 10 (sliding scale of 1-10), then I would guess classmate networking is a 2. But the fact of the matter is, an MBA is an MBA. You can do cursory job searches (internet) and find that even newly minted MBA's command a decent salary.

Part-Time Stern Vs. Full Time Schools

Prep Toolkit

Top 5 GMAT Debrief Videos

615 to 715 in 15 Days (Ria's Strategies)

More than Quant/Verbal Abilities: Speed vs. Accuracy

745 with Only Self-Prep and GMAT Club

From 555 to 765: 210-point Improvement

Perfect 805 Score Debrief by Julia

My Rewards