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# Problems with two of these if/then CRs

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Intern
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 45
Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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21 Dec 2008, 01:41
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Facing trouble at sorting out correct answers. Got wrong back to back.

No senator spoke at the convention unless he or she was a Democrat. No Democrat both spoke at the convention and was a senator.
Which one of the following conclusions can be correctly drawn from the statements above?
(A) No one but senators spoke at the convention.
(B) No Democrat spoke at the convention.
(C) Only Democrats spoke at the convention.
(D) No senator spoke at the convention.
(E) Some Democrat senators spoke at the convention.

If Sarah were a concert pianist for a major orchestra, she would be famous. She is not a concert pianist since she is not famous.
The conclusion above is unsound because the author does not consider that
(A) Sarah could be a famous actress.
(B) Sarah could be a harpist for a major orchestra.
(C) Sarah could be a pianist with a rock group.
(D) Sarah could be a concert pianist with a minor orchestra.
(E) Sarah could be famous for another reason.

Will post OA once answers start flowing.

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Intern
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 45
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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21 Dec 2008, 02:06
Please note that these are from CR 1000 and I do have legible answers.
Senior Manager
Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 261
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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21 Dec 2008, 07:11
bounced ..
1) No clue
2) D
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"CEO in making"

Intern
Joined: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 17
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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21 Dec 2008, 10:40
1
IMO (D) for both.

Question 1: Statement 1 imply that only Democrat Senators speak at the convention. Statement 2 imply that only non-Senator Democrats spoke in the convention. Putting both statements together - No Senator must have spoken at the convention(which is D)

Question 2: Sarah would if famous if a) she is a concert pianist AND b) working for a major orhestra. Evidence: She is not famous. Which could mean either one of the conditions or both conditions are false. So its possible that, Sarah is a concert pianist and not working for a major orchestra(i.e working for a minor one). This is not considered by the author. So 'D' is the correct answer.
VP
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 1479
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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21 Dec 2008, 11:18
1 D.
2 E.

In 1: only democratic senator spoke at the convention and no democrat that was also a senator spoke. That means, no senator spoke at the convention.

2 is a classical example of if x then y does not mean if not x then not y.
VP
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1340
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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21 Dec 2008, 12:07
1
While I agree with D on the first one. I am puzzled by the second one

If Sarah were a concert pianist for a major orchestra, she would be famous

( 1.1) CP for MO -> F

also means (1.2) ~F -> ~ ( CP for MO )

She is not a concert pianist since she is not famous.

IMO, This is (1.3) ~F -> ~ CP and is neither equal to (1.2) or (1.4) which is ~ CP -> ~ F

In other words this is not a classic case of if x then y does not mean if not x then not y. The second sentence uses since and changes the direction.

Now looking at the Q The conclusion above is unsound because the author does not consider that

What is making the Conclusion (S is not a CP) unsound (false, which means sarah could be a CP) is because S could be a pianist for some minor orchestra

Hence I think its D
Intern
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 45
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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Updated on: 23 Dec 2008, 05:21
1
OA is D for both..

Originally posted by josh_nsit on 23 Dec 2008, 05:11.
Last edited by josh_nsit on 23 Dec 2008, 05:21, edited 1 time in total.
Intern
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 45
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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23 Dec 2008, 05:12
1
OA is D for both..

Can someone help me on first one. Couldn't crack the logic there.

Just able to make out this :
Statement 1 : If senator speaks, he is a democrat (Simplified)
(Speak) and (senator) --> D(democrat)
Statement 2: No Democrat both spoke at the convention and was a senator.(Original)
Democrat did not speak or was not a senator (Simplified)
D --> not Speak or nor senator

Statement 1 and 2 are just not getting right here when combined. Please point out the err in framing the conditions in the statements here. I am sure on 1st statement, but a bit confused on statement 2.

Any alternative explanation on first question is welcome.
Intern
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 4
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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23 Dec 2008, 05:38
icandy wrote:
While I agree with D on the first one. I am puzzled by the second one

If Sarah were a concert pianist for a major orchestra, she would be famous

( 1.1) CP for MO -> F

also means (1.2) ~F -> ~ ( CP for MO )

She is not a concert pianist since she is not famous.

IMO, This is (1.3) ~F -> ~ CP and is neither equal to (1.2) or (1.4) which is ~ CP -> ~ F

In other words this is not a classic case of if x then y does not mean if not x then not y. The second sentence uses since and changes the direction.

Now looking at the Q The conclusion above is unsound because the author does not consider that

What is making the Conclusion (S is not a CP) unsound (false, which means sarah could be a CP) is because S could be a pianist for some minor orchestra

Hence I think its D

Icandy, I cant get how you have reached 1.4 here. It is nowhere specified as such in the question.
Intern
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 4
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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23 Dec 2008, 05:49
josh_nsit wrote:
OA is D for both..

Can someone help me on first one. Couldn't crack the logic there.

Just able to make out this :
Statement 1 : If senator speaks, he is a democrat (Simplified)
(Speak) and (senator) --> D(democrat)
Statement 2: No Democrat both spoke at the convention and was a senator.(Original)
Democrat did not speak or was not a senator (Simplified)
D --> not Speak or nor senator

Statement 1 and 2 are just not getting right here when combined. Please point out the err in framing the conditions in the statements here. I am sure on 1st statement, but a bit confused on statement 2.

Any alternative explanation on first question is welcome.

I also followed the same path and got stuck.
Can any one explain this with formal logic?
Director
Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 652
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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23 Dec 2008, 09:18
IMO 1)D
2) E. Not sure why OA is D for second one....
VP
Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 1479
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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24 Dec 2008, 02:46
I missed the conclusion "She is the concert pianist" in the argument and ended up choosing E as the answer. Agree with D as the correct answer.
Manager
Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 94
Schools: NYU Stern Class of 2012
WE 1: GM, Diversified Financial Svcs.
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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24 Dec 2008, 06:22
josh_nsit wrote:
OA is D for both..

Can someone help me on first one. Couldn't crack the logic there.

Just able to make out this :
Statement 1 : If senator speaks, he is a democrat (Simplified)
(Speak) and (senator) --> D(democrat)
Statement 2: No Democrat both spoke at the convention and was a senator.(Original)
Democrat did not speak or was not a senator (Simplified)
D --> not Speak or nor senator

Statement 1 and 2 are just not getting right here when combined. Please point out the err in framing the conditions in the statements here. I am sure on 1st statement, but a bit confused on statement 2.

Any alternative explanation on first question is welcome.

Josh - I'll try and explain how I came up with D for #1.

From what you wrote:

Just able to make out this :
Statement 1 : If senator speaks, he is a democrat (Simplified)
(Speak) and (senator) --> D(democrat)
Statement 2: No Democrat both spoke at the convention and was a senator.(Original)
Democrat did not speak or was not a senator (Simplified)
D --> not Speak or nor senator

Democrat spoke and NOT Senator. Or Democrat Senator and NOT Speaker.

So, going through the answers with that info:

(A) No one but senators spoke at the convention. - False. Can't be determined from info given.
(B) No Democrat spoke at the convention. - Contender. Upon further review, easy for Demo to speak but not be senator.
(C) Only Democrats spoke at the convention. False. No info supporting this claim.
(D) No senator spoke at the convention. Correct Answer. Only democrate senators spoke, but no democrat spoke that was also a senator.
(E) Some Democrat senators spoke at the convention. False. Answer conflicts with Statement 1 & 2.
Manager
Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 94
Schools: NYU Stern Class of 2012
WE 1: GM, Diversified Financial Svcs.
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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24 Dec 2008, 06:41
My reasoning for #2 -

If Sarah were a concert pianist for a major orchestra, she would be famous. She is not a concert pianist since she is not famous.
The conclusion above is unsound because the author does not consider that

To me, this is a "Weaken" question. Which means you have to assume each of the answers is correct and see if it weakens the argument.

Breaking the stimulus down, you get-
Statement 1 - If Sarah were a concert pianist for a major orchestra, she would be famous
CP for MO = Famous

Statement 2 - She is not a concert pianist since she is not famous.
!CP because !F

After breaking it down, I focus almost exclusively on the conclusion, which is statement 2. In this case, it's clearly a false assumption, but what answer choice proves it?

(A) Sarah could be a famous actress. Initial contender for me. But the conclusion concerns being a Concert Pianist, NOT being famous.(B) Sarah could be a harpist for a major orchestra. False. Again, does not pertain to being a Concert Pianist.
(C) Sarah could be a pianist with a rock group. The famous "Shell Game" from the CR Bible. Pianist does NOT equal CONCERT Pianist. Thus false.
(D) Sarah could be a concert pianist with a minor orchestra. Correct Answer. This clearly proves that Sarah could be a concert pianist without necessarily being famous, as is stated in the conclusion (statement 2)
(E) Sarah could be famous for another reason. Similar to A, this is false because it ignores the primary portion of the conclusion - being a concert pianist
Director
Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 652
Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs [#permalink]

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24 Dec 2008, 08:34
I agree D makes sense for second one.

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This is not a quality discussion. It has been retired.

If you would like to discuss this question please re-post it in the respective forum. Thank you!

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Re: Problems with two of these if/then CRs   [#permalink] 24 Dec 2008, 08:34
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# Problems with two of these if/then CRs

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