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smileyface
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 11:32
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Interesting conversation...

At a Wharton admission event, we read applications from past years ( the names and identifying information were changed) with a Wharton admissions director. There was one applicant whose recommenders wrote similar weaknesses. One said he "encouraged her to be a leader" and the other said "she lacked confidence".

The Wharton director said that they look for themes in the recommendations and if something appears more than once, it raises a red flag. The applicant was ultimately rejected.
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 12:21
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smileyface
Interesting conversation...

At a Wharton admission event, we read applications from past years ( the names and identifying information were changed) with a Wharton admissions director. There was one applicant whose recommenders wrote similar weaknesses. One said he "encouraged her to be a leader" and the other said "she lacked confidence".

The Wharton director said that they look for themes in the recommendations and if something appears more than once, it raises a red flag. The applicant was ultimately rejected.
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interesting format....where was this event? was this just an info session?
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 14:05
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smileyface
Interesting conversation...

At a Wharton admission event, we read applications from past years ( the names and identifying information were changed) with a Wharton admissions director. There was one applicant whose recommenders wrote similar weaknesses. One said he "encouraged her to be a leader" and the other said "she lacked confidence".

The Wharton director said that they look for themes in the recommendations and if something appears more than once, it raises a red flag. The applicant was ultimately rejected.
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Interesting...I don't find those responses to be all that suspicious. I'd bet that my old bosses from different companies would have similar things to say about my weaknesses (and strengths, for that matter). A little overlap is to be expected. In fact, I think that letters of rec with zero common themes should raise even more of a red flag!
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 20:39
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Probably common "bad" weaknesses from 2 evaluators can lead to a rejection. But suppose you do have a weakness that can be a ground for rejection, but you have "coached" your evaluators not to talk about them, then what purpose does the recommendation serve? You spoke very highly of yourself in your essays and you also coached them to do so. So isn't that manipulation?
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 22:27
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risin1phoenix
Probably common "bad" weaknesses from 2 evaluators can lead to a rejection. But suppose you do have a weakness that can be a ground for rejection, but you have "coached" your evaluators not to talk about them, then what purpose does the recommendation serve? You spoke very highly of yourself in your essays and you also coached them to do so. So isn't that manipulation?
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so honesty gets one rejected, but else we are being dishonest....thats a catch...

i find it hard to believe that all the 20 somethings applying to b school are mature enough to have worked out any personality flaws, and are also smooth corporate environment operators...
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 22:30
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i have so much about this recommendations, it seems very confusing, and i wish bschool were like engineering in some sense, make it objective.. assign marks to all components - gmat gpa workex essays.. but recos, who knows, how do you verify.. perhaps that goes for essays too, but at least in the interview they can get to see you.. do they even call the recommenders?
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 23:22
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My point is if someone is looking at a "bad" weakness in a reco, then it shouldn't be ground for rejection. Maybe the adcom should address it in the interview and see how the candidate reacts. I've never attended an info session, so I'm not aware what the schools have to say about this. I'm applying for the 1st time this year (and probably the last time), but i'm surprised no one ever brought it up before, i.e. the adcoms didn't think about it?

Also if your evaluator is himself from a good B-school, then he/she will be considerate while writing about weaknesses. But it may not be the case with others.

As for the above post, I don't see how essays can be manipulated. They just show how you think and how well you can project yourself as the right candidate. Unless you mean that one can get others to write a complete essay for him/her.

I have applied to 3 schools and haven't heard from anyone. Now I feel I should have probably taken help from a Consultant. I did approach one, but she was asking $9k for 4 schools :shock: I don't know if that's the standard rate.
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 01 Dec 2010, 23:25
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abt essays - what i meant is that the adcom gets a chance to interview you and see whether you can talk english fluently express ideas coherently, which your essays undoubtedly will have, so any inconsistency will be a red flag.. now there is no such verification angle for the recos.
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 02 Dec 2010, 12:05
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smileyface
Interesting conversation...

At a Wharton admission event, we read applications from past years ( the names and identifying information were changed) with a Wharton admissions director. There was one applicant whose recommenders wrote similar weaknesses. One said he "encouraged her to be a leader" and the other said "she lacked confidence".

The Wharton director said that they look for themes in the recommendations and if something appears more than once, it raises a red flag. The applicant was ultimately rejected.

interesting format....where was this event? was this just an info session?
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The event was at Wharton. It was for women and minorities.

Okay, perhaps I made it seem like the girl was rejected because of her weakness. She was invited to interview and didn't do too well in the interview. In addition, her goals essay was all over the place.

But, the admissions officer did acknowledge the similar theme in weakness and noted that they pay attention to negative things that keep reappearing.
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness Updated on: 02 Dec 2010, 13:46
Originally posted by smileyface on 02 Dec 2010, 12:08.
Last edited by smileyface on 02 Dec 2010, 13:46, edited 1 time in total.
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risin1phoenix
Probably common "bad" weaknesses from 2 evaluators can lead to a rejection. But suppose you do have a weakness that can be a ground for rejection, but you have "coached" your evaluators not to talk about them, then what purpose does the recommendation serve? You spoke very highly of yourself in your essays and you also coached them to do so. So isn't that manipulation?

so honesty gets one rejected, but else we are being dishonest....thats a catch...

i find it hard to believe that all the 20 somethings applying to b school are mature enough to have worked out any personality flaws, and are also smooth corporate environment operators...
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the application is about selling yourself....100% honesty and marketing don't go together
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 02 Dec 2010, 12:45
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It is merely accentuating the positives while minimizing the attention to weaknesses. Almost every marketing/selling situation follows this basic precept. If you (and by extension your 'recommend'-ers) do not speak well of yourself, your product or what you have to offer to the program, who will?
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 02 Dec 2010, 13:26
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summitbid
i did meddle with my recommendations to the extent of knowing what they put in them. my recommendations were honest about my weaknesses - my manager said i needed to deal better with conflict, need to learn more about business and strategy, and need to be more comfortable with impromptu swagger filled bullshit talk in the business environment. and oh, for what needs to be changed about me, he said i had tremendous drive, but needed to develop more patience.

so far i have been dinged 2/4 without interview calls. while i do attribute some of it to my essays, i cant help but think the recs played their part...

for round 2 i have had my honest conversations, and have asked them to dumb my weaknesses down a few notches...
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"more comfortable with impromptu swagger filled bullshit talk in the business environment"

This cracked me up. My boss said the same about me, but in different words.

I don't know why someone would let the recommendation go blind without some coaching. This is a huge risk with lots to lose and what was the benefit again? Obviously there is a gray area but with good judgment you can avoid distasterous results from the stupidest misunderstanding of the process/competition (boss didn't want to sound "over the top" - I've encountered this) while maintaining integrity.

To look the other way and hope for the best seems pretty foolish to me, especially if your recommenders don't fully understand the game.
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 02 Dec 2010, 13:44
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I coached my boss 3 months ago when I asked for his recommendation. Of course, he chooses to write it over lunch the week before he submits. He just showed what he had and my goodness gracious.....all I keep thinking is if this is a recommendation what is a performance review. Worse part is he was surprised when I told him it was not good. He really thought he spoke well of me. But, he just had a bunch of adjectives, no examples and didn't answer parts of the questions. Very lackluster, very short...If I didnt know otherwise and read that letter, I would think he didnt like me. Anyway, I am recoaching him so we will see how it goes.
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 02 Dec 2010, 22:22
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WilfulCruiser
It is merely accentuating the positives while minimizing the attention to weaknesses. Almost every marketing/selling situation follows this basic precept. If you (and by extension your 'recommend'-ers) do not speak well of yourself, your product or what you have to offer to the program, who will?
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I agree with your marketing analogy, but the buyers should also do independent research about the product, right? They shouldn't let themselves fooled by somebody who can sell himself well and can also arrange for "testimonials". My point is not about honesty/dishonesty, but about the whole purpose of a recommendation. I guess that's why someone went to Yale claiming he was with the CIA,etc :)

Anyway, if the schools also say that evaluators should be "coached", then fine. I never attended any info session and I wasn't aware of it. In my special case, I did a little bit of job switching and hence I'm not sure how much my recommendations would matter if they are good. But in case they are bad, that might be ground for rejection.
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risin1phoenix
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Recommendation-Perceived weakness 03 Dec 2010, 02:13
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hbsalias

I don't know why someone would let the recommendation go blind without some coaching. This is a huge risk with lots to lose and what was the benefit again? Obviously there is a gray area but with good judgment you can avoid distasterous results from the stupidest misunderstanding of the process/competition (boss didn't want to sound "over the top" - I've encountered this) while maintaining integrity.

To look the other way and hope for the best seems pretty foolish to me, especially if your recommenders don't fully understand the game.
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Abt going over the top, yeah you're right. I hope my recommendation weaknesses don't have statements like "he is a perfectionist", "works very hard", etc. :)
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