Last visit was: 20 Nov 2025, 00:08 It is currently 20 Nov 2025, 00:08
Home
GMAT
Messages
Tests
Schools
Events
Rewards
Chat
My Profile
Close
GMAT Club Daily Prep
Thank you for using the timer - this advanced tool can estimate your performance and suggest more practice questions. We have subscribed you to Daily Prep Questions via email.

Customized
for You

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History

Track
Your Progress

every week, we’ll send you an estimated GMAT score based on your performance

Practice
Pays

we will pick new questions that match your level based on your Timer History
Not interested in getting valuable practice questions and articles delivered to your email? No problem, unsubscribe here.
Go to My Error Log Learn more
Close
Request Expert Reply
Confirm Cancel
User avatar
kidderek
User avatar
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Last visit: 13 Jul 2019
Posts: 1,960
Own Kudos:
364
Posts: 1,960
Kudos: 364
Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:12
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Tuneman
I am suprised to hear about the hours, I usually heard that S&T (on the sell side) is the facet of IB'ing with the shortest hours. Usually an hour before the market opens and maybe an hour after, can anyone shed light on that?
Show more


facet of IB'ing?
User avatar
kidderek
User avatar
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Last visit: 13 Jul 2019
Posts: 1,960
Own Kudos:
364
Posts: 1,960
Kudos: 364
Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:32
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Porscheboy16
Let's say you get fired. What options do you have from there?
Show more


I don't know about options if you get fired. But some exit options are IM/HF or financial advisor. Hours are more like 7-4 or 7-5. No one stays until 8 except for backoffice people or during unusual circumstances.
User avatar
Tuneman
User avatar
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Last visit: 08 Nov 2009
Posts: 103
Own Kudos:
3
Posts: 103
Kudos: 3
Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:42
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
kidderek
Tuneman
I am suprised to hear about the hours, I usually heard that S&T (on the sell side) is the facet of IB'ing with the shortest hours. Usually an hour before the market opens and maybe an hour after, can anyone shed light on that?

facet of IB'ing?
Show more



yeah, the different aspects or parts of IBing. I hear that M&A, especially for analysts is ungodly hours, ops is sometimes awful, I hear front office usually has the best hrs. Is this true? and does anyone know the hours for buy side traders as well (of course this is going to vary tremendously)
User avatar
kidderek
User avatar
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Last visit: 13 Jul 2019
Posts: 1,960
Own Kudos:
364
Posts: 1,960
Kudos: 364
Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:58
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
S&T is usually considered not a part of IB.
User avatar
3underscore
User avatar
Current Student
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Last visit: 16 Mar 2016
Posts: 1,428
Own Kudos:
234
Given Kudos: 6
Location: New York, NY
Concentration: Finance (Corp Fin, Financial Instruments)
Schools:NYU Stern 2009
Posts: 1,428
Kudos: 234
Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 13:53
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
That is where this is confusing though, kidderek. S+T is part of an Investment Bank. IB is a conceivable phrase for Investment Bank, or - as the acronym seems most commonly used - Mergers & Acquisitions, Corporate Finance etc. It is easily confused.

I think that getting the idea that S+T is the easy life in comparison is erroneous (not that I am saying anyone is making that mix up). Taking into account the level of pressure, S+T is often a hell of a lot more stressful, because you are constantly on the line against data, living with the flow you have, whatever. If you don't have a position, you won't make money, so normally - you have risk to worry about.

M&A is all about exhaustion. S+T is all about stress. People I know who trade work 7-6 (reasonably high up), spend time with brokers, and often go home and read text books to brush up on models and things they feel they need to know. To a certain extent it depends on what type of person you are as to how much work S+T is.
User avatar
Tuneman
User avatar
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Last visit: 08 Nov 2009
Posts: 103
Own Kudos:
3
Posts: 103
Kudos: 3
Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 16:51
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
I dont understand how knowing models and the math for non-arbitrage traders helps. This is something I'm dying to know.

If you are a sell side derivatives trader, whats the point of knowing how to price options? You are assuming that they are fairly priced, right? Your job is to simply buy or sell them for this already known price, right? So I am wondering where that knowledge comes in handy.
User avatar
rhyme
User avatar
Major Poster
Joined: 05 Apr 2006
Last visit: 02 Dec 2024
Posts: 5,909
Own Kudos:
3,172
Given Kudos: 7
Affiliations: HHonors Diamond, BGS Honor Society
Schools: Chicago (Booth) - Class of 2009
GMAT 1: 730 Q45 V45
WE:Business Development (Consumer Packaged Goods)
Schools: Chicago (Booth) - Class of 2009
GMAT 1: 730 Q45 V45
Posts: 5,909
Kudos: 3,172
Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 17:05
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
I'm never gonna figure out what I wanna do :)
User avatar
diegmat
User avatar
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Last visit: 16 Apr 2012
Posts: 152
Own Kudos:
59
Schools:Olin Business School - Washington University
Posts: 152
Kudos: 59
Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 00:42
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Tuneman -

Its important to understand that sell side traders aren't just process people - ie they dont just blindly execute orders for customers. Otherwise the whole business would be black box (and maybe it will be in 10 years).

Sell side traders for all instruments (incl derivs and FI) add value outside of execution, eg trading ideas, market intelligence, and getting BETTER execution (working the order better than competitors). Also, I don't think any sell side derivs trader would ever assume an option was fairly priced - and it is important for them to understand black scholes and other pricing models to be able to communicate effectively and add value to the buy side for the reasons mentioned above.
User avatar
3underscore
User avatar
Current Student
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Last visit: 16 Mar 2016
Posts: 1,428
Own Kudos:
234
Given Kudos: 6
Location: New York, NY
Concentration: Finance (Corp Fin, Financial Instruments)
Schools:NYU Stern 2009
Posts: 1,428
Kudos: 234
Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 01:48
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Tuneman
If you are a sell side derivatives trader, whats the point of knowing how to price options? You are assuming that they are fairly priced, right? Your job is to simply buy or sell them for this already known price, right? So I am wondering where that knowledge comes in handy.
Show more


As diegmat says, the big assumption there is that you assumed it was fairly priced. If you make that assumption, I will happily trade with you all day!

You need to know how to calibrate your models, how they price so that you know what the second derivative of your product is (see all the greeks on options). You need to know how you can strip a product into component parts to sell it, you need to work out cross-correlations of what you are holding.

Ultimately, if your ass is on the line, would you let someone else build the tools you use without checking them and knowing them?
User avatar
Ozmba
User avatar
Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Last visit: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 953
Own Kudos:
30
Location: New York
Posts: 953
Kudos: 30
Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 06:58
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
rhyme
I'm never gonna figure out what I wanna do :)
Show more


Rhyme, I heard the same from numerous bschool students

Looks like this is the common thread among many MBA aspirants
User avatar
kidderek
User avatar
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Last visit: 13 Jul 2019
Posts: 1,960
Own Kudos:
364
Posts: 1,960
Kudos: 364
Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 07:29
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
rhyme
I'm never gonna figure out what I wanna do :)
Show more


My sentiments exactly.
User avatar
Shawshank
User avatar
Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Last visit: 04 Jan 2014
Posts: 331
Own Kudos:
216
 [1]
Given Kudos: 4
Posts: 331
Kudos: 216
 [1]
Sales and Trading... 16 Dec 2012, 18:51
1
Kudos
Add Kudos
Bookmarks
Bookmark this Post
Sorry for bumping this thread, but it's quite interesting.

My understanding is that MBA S&T recruiting has declined considerably in the last few years. Curious to hear from people at wharton/booth/sloan/columbia/Tuck/LBS, about this though.
   1   2