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kidderek
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Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:12
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Tuneman
I am suprised to hear about the hours, I usually heard that S&T (on the sell side) is the facet of IB'ing with the shortest hours. Usually an hour before the market opens and maybe an hour after, can anyone shed light on that?
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facet of IB'ing?
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kidderek
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Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:32
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Porscheboy16
Let's say you get fired. What options do you have from there?
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I don't know about options if you get fired. But some exit options are IM/HF or financial advisor. Hours are more like 7-4 or 7-5. No one stays until 8 except for backoffice people or during unusual circumstances.
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Tuneman
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Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:42
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kidderek
Tuneman
I am suprised to hear about the hours, I usually heard that S&T (on the sell side) is the facet of IB'ing with the shortest hours. Usually an hour before the market opens and maybe an hour after, can anyone shed light on that?

facet of IB'ing?
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yeah, the different aspects or parts of IBing. I hear that M&A, especially for analysts is ungodly hours, ops is sometimes awful, I hear front office usually has the best hrs. Is this true? and does anyone know the hours for buy side traders as well (of course this is going to vary tremendously)
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kidderek
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Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 11:58
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S&T is usually considered not a part of IB.
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3underscore
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Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 13:53
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That is where this is confusing though, kidderek. S+T is part of an Investment Bank. IB is a conceivable phrase for Investment Bank, or - as the acronym seems most commonly used - Mergers & Acquisitions, Corporate Finance etc. It is easily confused.

I think that getting the idea that S+T is the easy life in comparison is erroneous (not that I am saying anyone is making that mix up). Taking into account the level of pressure, S+T is often a hell of a lot more stressful, because you are constantly on the line against data, living with the flow you have, whatever. If you don't have a position, you won't make money, so normally - you have risk to worry about.

M&A is all about exhaustion. S+T is all about stress. People I know who trade work 7-6 (reasonably high up), spend time with brokers, and often go home and read text books to brush up on models and things they feel they need to know. To a certain extent it depends on what type of person you are as to how much work S+T is.
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Tuneman
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Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 16:51
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I dont understand how knowing models and the math for non-arbitrage traders helps. This is something I'm dying to know.

If you are a sell side derivatives trader, whats the point of knowing how to price options? You are assuming that they are fairly priced, right? Your job is to simply buy or sell them for this already known price, right? So I am wondering where that knowledge comes in handy.
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Sales and Trading... 19 Apr 2007, 17:05
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I'm never gonna figure out what I wanna do :)
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diegmat
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Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 00:42
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Tuneman -

Its important to understand that sell side traders aren't just process people - ie they dont just blindly execute orders for customers. Otherwise the whole business would be black box (and maybe it will be in 10 years).

Sell side traders for all instruments (incl derivs and FI) add value outside of execution, eg trading ideas, market intelligence, and getting BETTER execution (working the order better than competitors). Also, I don't think any sell side derivs trader would ever assume an option was fairly priced - and it is important for them to understand black scholes and other pricing models to be able to communicate effectively and add value to the buy side for the reasons mentioned above.
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Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 01:48
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Tuneman
If you are a sell side derivatives trader, whats the point of knowing how to price options? You are assuming that they are fairly priced, right? Your job is to simply buy or sell them for this already known price, right? So I am wondering where that knowledge comes in handy.
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As diegmat says, the big assumption there is that you assumed it was fairly priced. If you make that assumption, I will happily trade with you all day!

You need to know how to calibrate your models, how they price so that you know what the second derivative of your product is (see all the greeks on options). You need to know how you can strip a product into component parts to sell it, you need to work out cross-correlations of what you are holding.

Ultimately, if your ass is on the line, would you let someone else build the tools you use without checking them and knowing them?
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Ozmba
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Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 06:58
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rhyme
I'm never gonna figure out what I wanna do :)
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Rhyme, I heard the same from numerous bschool students

Looks like this is the common thread among many MBA aspirants
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kidderek
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Sales and Trading... 20 Apr 2007, 07:29
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rhyme
I'm never gonna figure out what I wanna do :)
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My sentiments exactly.
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Shawshank
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Sales and Trading... 16 Dec 2012, 18:51
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Sorry for bumping this thread, but it's quite interesting.

My understanding is that MBA S&T recruiting has declined considerably in the last few years. Curious to hear from people at wharton/booth/sloan/columbia/Tuck/LBS, about this though.
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