the arrogance!

Question

have any of you guys noticed subtle, but irritating, condescension toward bschool when talking with non-bschoolers (law students, etc). i'm talking about obnoxious comments like "oh bschool, that's easy" or "i know someone who's in an mba program, he's got a sweet set up and parties a lot".

needless to say, i'm becoming a little more selective about with whom i'm willing to converse.

needless to say, i'm becoming a little more selective about with whom i'm willing to converse.

GoBruin · Answer

It's true though, it's like a great ROI, but it's not a law or Med degree. Alex Chu said something before, B-schools are generally B students. While Law/med are A students.

pu2003 · Answer

As a lawyer who is applying to b school, I can tell you most law students and lawyers wish they would pursue business ventures instead. They're just jelous.

lsuguy7 · Answer

Well it is hard to beat the A student vs B student argument - MBA gpa at top business schools are nothing compared to Law or Med school.

Think of it like academics vs real world. To get into a top MBA school you have to be successful in business and usually you would already have a ton of skills that will make you marketble even if you didn't have the MBA. A JD or MD is much more acedemically based in selection. I don't know if my undergrad experience is similar to others but the pre-law (c'mon it's a history degree) and pre-med students didn't have to take the most challenging courses in the ciriculum because everything is about keeping your gpa up, while business students were being prepared for "real world" not "more school"

falibay · Answer

I don't really agree with B-School students being B students. I would actually say that it is harder to get into B-School as you have to show more than just grade. Grade wise, Law/Med school students may be better but if you have an LSAT in 98% and a 3.95 GPA from a good school, you will get into Harvard Law... It is not automatically true for HBS. Now Law school and med school students probably study harder while at school but they aren't as busy with other aspects.

I don't think that one is better than the other, just different.

I don't think that one is better than the other, just different.

JayPX1 · Answer

As far as I know, you don't even have to interview for admission to most law schools. That should point out the key difference between the two.

bostonsparky · Answer

As my dad always used to tell me, when you're digging a ditch, you can use a spoon or use a shovel, just because something is 'harder' doesn't mean it's more worthwhile. To each their own, there's definitely a need for both JD's and MBA's in this world. I remember when I was an undergrad in comp sci, we used to be those same obnoxious jerks who'd sneer at liberal arts majors for the same "I'm actually learning something useful and necessary" argument that a lot of those liberal arts majors-turned-lawyers now vent towards MBAs.

For me I'd be less thrilled to deal with the types younggun speaks of more because of their need to be condescending than their career choice. But I've always been a 'bars instead of clubs' type anyway.

For me I'd be less thrilled to deal with the types younggun speaks of more because of their need to be condescending than their career choice. But I've always been a 'bars instead of clubs' type anyway.

lsuguy7 · Answer

umm when I describe A students vs B students I'm talking about it in GPA a= 4.0 b=3.0

If you look at the median gpa at Yale Law it is 3.9 (basically an A in every class) and median at HBS is 3.66 (I couldn't find Stanford's it might be a bit higher)

So students at HBS basically got A's in half of there class with B's in the other half and students at Yale Law got A's in almost all classes.

In terms of my undergrad the average HBS student didn't graduate with honors and the average Yale Law graduated with Summa Cum Laude (highest honors)

isa · Answer

Yeah I've gotten that a little bit. I've also gotten "Oh you just want to make money huh?" and a lot of "Aren't MBAs the reason why the economy's so bad?" I just smile, nod and move on.

Jerz · Answer

Wow, I'm surprised I'm in the minority here. I really haven't talked to anyone who's been condescending about bschool. A few have asked if I'm really ready to give up my salary and take on student debt, but just about everyone I've talked to has been very complimentary of the quality of people in MBA programs. Of course, I don't have lawyer or doctor friends so maybe that has something to do with it.

I do disagree with the A students at law/med school and B students a bschool comment. It's hard to say that with an average GPA of 3.5-3.6 at bschool that the students there are B students. I think it'd be more accurate to say that it's a question of A students (at law/med school) vs A- students with a ton of ECs (at bschool).

atlmba2009 · Answer

When my brother was in law school I met many, many law school students who are now attorneys, many of whom I am still in contact with. I can say that while many of them were plenty smart (and many were not), they were all extremely arrogant about the fact that they were becoming attorneys. They were all misguided though, because they all now HATE their jobs, and most are working on their exit strategies- they either want to move to a smaller firm, start their own firms, or leave law altogether.

Maybe on the whole they are/were better students, but that sure doesn't seem to have any correlation to happiness or job satisfaction.

Maybe on the whole they are/were better students, but that sure doesn't seem to have any correlation to happiness or job satisfaction.

falibay · Answer

if the goal of Law/Med school student is to gage who has better academic capabilities, we should look at top engineering/science programs. That's probably where you will find the best and strongest academic student...

lsuguy7 · Answer

I'm in the same boat as Jerz - most people have no idea why I'd give up my salary and job to return to school and take on huge student debt.

thedudeabides · Answer

This is certainly an interesting (and timely) thread. Working in the healthcare field, there's a constant acknowledgment of the paucity of doctors (and their pain in providing care). MBAs are not generally frowned upon, but are seen as the people who "manage" and don't necessarily contribute to the creative motor of research and implementation. In addition to that, there is some consensus that MBAs manufactured much of this financial miasma and those with bar- and board-certified positions, viz. JDs and MDs, are unsoiled (at least that's what I get a gentle earful about). Or how about my friend who told me that I should major in "Corporate Financial Handshaking?"

Ultimately, I think it's an apples-to-oranges argument. My MD and JD friends and mentors are drawn from distinct skill and personality sets. It isn't to say that they wouldn't be successful in an MBA environment, but they have applied to and exist in a very different universe (at least that's my experience) that breeds a slightly different attitude to the professional world. That said, I would agree that the application process is much more nebulous (and seemingly difficult) for MBAs, in part due to the nebulous world of business. While some might think there is the prototypical MBA candidate, with all of the dings I've seen from M/B/B or IBs, I'd say that is not so much the case as compared to those in law and medicine (where, as one person so astutely pointed out, you meet a certain LSAT/GPA index and you're in...not to mention that most law schools require a single personal statement, no more, no less--contrast that to the five your wrote for Kellogg or Wharton).

Finally, rejoice. If they fully understood where you were coming from and knew how to do what you did, you and I would likely be irrelevant. I'm willing to take a little razzing.

yaazol · Answer

A couple of years ago, during my first attempt at applying to B-school, I interviewed with a Kellogg JD/MBA alum in California. He was working at a law firm at the time. He told me, though, that he was using the JD first almost to justify having gotten it. He expected to be using his MBA within a couple of years and transitioning to a business career. It was almost like he didn't see himself using the JD at all if he had gone into a business career first.

lsuguy7 · Answer

I think this argument really depends on which side of the fence you land - I think there is a valid argument to saying that the MBA is the harder to be accepted to and some might say it is the easiest to be accepted.

If you have a 4.0 and a 700+ on the gmat - you probably think the MBA is the hardest because your academics don't warrant that you should be accepted into a top school and if you had similar stats you could get into a top md or jd school.

If you are on the other side you might have gotten a 3.0 and a 650 on the GMAT you've still got a shot at HBS because of some incredible success you've had then it is the easiest.

**I fall into the category of thinking it's the hardest**

bostonsparky · Answer

Anyone else here read Atlas Shrugged? (probably my favorite book) That paragraph immediately made me think of that book's premise. Spoiler Alert, but its basically a story of how the creative and original people of the world, the innovators, completely withdraw from society due to how they feel they are underappreciated and being leeched on by managers and beaureaucrats, and society starts to collapse as a result.

That said, there's a reason MBA programs are only 30% or w/e people who majored in business undergrad. I think there's plenty of creative people who are applying to MBA programs as well - I've seen a lot of 'creative' people in my line of work who are perfect to have on a research team, but to lead it? My response to those 'unsoiled's' would be that an MBA can also complement rather than replace.

GoBruin · Answer

Whoa, where did you get that statement. I don't know about your school but UCLA is a huge feeder for MED/Pharm/Dental etc. and I don't know you can say they didn't take the most challenging courses. Most pre-Med (Probably all top25 Programs) require 1 year calculus or above, 1 year physics with lab, Gen Chem/O-Chem with lab, 1 year english (upper div) and generally have a science background at least 3.8 GPA, 30+ MCAT, and top teired university.

I'm wondering what "challenging courses" are you refering to?

Toubab · Answer

From what I can tell, a medical or law education is more challenging (not to mention longer) than an MBA curriculum. The level of competitiveness (at least in the decent law schools) also blows away business school. So at least on that level, I guess they have a point.

I usually act a little apologetic when I say I'm going to b-school - I usually just say "grad school" - simply because among the non-corporate/MBA world, MBAs have a longstanding reputation for being moneygrubbing tools. Sorry folks... but it's true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcoDV0dhWPA

Skitalets · Answer

Responding to the OP, I wouldn't say the condescension is subtle at all -- it's quite overt among law students. Most think business school is a joke. As some have said above, part of it may be sour grapes -- many people get sick of law school by the end and go on to jobs they really hate. But I don't think that's the whole story.

I'd love to hear comments from current b-schoolers, but my sense is that the academic component of business school really is less rigorous/time-consuming than, for example, law school. However, recruiting adds a tremendous amount of work/pressure and is very time consuming -- you have to go to tons of company events, make yourself known so you get on a closed list, prep for case interviews, and tailor yourself and past WE to some very specific requirements for each industry and function.

Whereas at law school, you just walk right in to an interview, bringing your resume and a smile. Most of what matters is grades and personality. Because recruiting starts at the very beginning of 2L, no one can take specialized courses, so intended field of law doesn't matter at all. And everyone is starting from a clean slate -- WE is largely irrelevant.

So law school may be more academically challenging, but I don't expect to have more free time next year than my wife did 1L/2L years.

the arrogance!

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