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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 24 Jul 2020, 19:26
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Rashed12
Thanks for the explanation. I am clear on the explanation, but I have doubt on "originally flowing" which indicates present continuous; I think it should be past form sense. So is it correct E in this sense? I would be glad if you explain my query.
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kornn
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.

(E) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, have been redirected through the construction of
Dear AnthonyRitz GMATGuruNY AjiteshArun IanStewart EducationAisle MartyTargetTestPrep DmitryFarber GMATNinja VeritasPrepHailey,

I'm just curious how V-ING "originally flowing" happened AT THE SAME TIME as the main verb "have been redirected"
My understanding is that "originally flowing" should occur BEFORE those rivers "have been redirected"
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Let's start with a couple of examples:

  • "The restaurant, simply called Tim's by the locals, has been the city's best kept secret for years." - Notice that "called" is just an -ed modifier, not a verb. It describes "the restaurant", and we know from the context that this modifier applies at present.
  • "The restaurant, originally called Tim's Pizza, has been renamed Tim's Famous Original Pizza." - Again, "called" is an -ed modifier that describes "the restaurant". However, in this case, we know from the context that this modifier applies to the time BEFORE the restaurant was renamed.

Back to the official question: "flowing" is a modifier, NOT a verb. So "originally flowing" does NOT indicate the "present continuous" or any other tense. It's simply a modifier, and the word "originally" tells us that this modifier applies to the time BEFORE the rivers were redirected.

In short, "-ed" and "-ing" modifiers do not have an inherent tense. Instead, the time frame of such modifiers is indicated by the context.

I hope that helps!
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 24 Jul 2020, 21:17
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Dear GMATNinja,

According to RonPurewal (https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... 36-75.html):
Quote:

yeah, that use of "flowing" bothers me, too -- it's not consistent with how __ing modifiers are used on essentially the entire remainder of the exam.
it would be better to use the regular past tense ("flowed")
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Ron implies that Verb-ing modifiers usually happen at the same time as the main verb. In other words, Verb-ing modifiers take the tense of the main verb.

What do you think of the above opinion?
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 24 Jul 2020, 21:31
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Dear GMATNinja,

More detail of RonPurewal 's stance on this (https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/foru ... ml#p108571):
Quote:

if the "__ing" relates to the main action in the correct way but doesn't occur in the same timeframe, then this kind of sentence is wrong. the main action must occur in the timeframe of "__ing".

this isn't anything special, of course; it's the same principle that obtains for other "__ing" modifiers, too.

e.g.,

Running into the path of an oncoming bus, Tyler was killed instantly.
--> makes sense; tyler was killed while running in front of the bus.

Tyler was struck by a bus, dying instantly.
--> sensible for the same reason.

Running into the path of an oncoming bus, Tyler died in the hospital a few hours later.
Tyler was struck by a bus, dying in the hospital a few hours later.
--> both nonsense, since the actions occur in two different timeframes.

if the timeframes are NOT the same, then, regardless of causality, you can't use a __ing modifier (since this notion of simultaneity is a big part of the reason why __ing modifiers exist in the first place).
rather, you need a different construction altogether, e.g., Tyler ran into the path of an oncoming bus and died in the hospital a few hours later.
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 24 Jul 2020, 21:35
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GMATNinja

Let's start with a couple of examples:

  • "The restaurant, simply called Tim's by the locals, has been the city's best kept secret for years." - Notice that "called" is just an -ed modifier, not a verb. It describes "the restaurant", and we know from the context that this modifier applies at present.
  • "The restaurant, originally called Tim's Pizza, has been renamed Tim's Famous Original Pizza." - Again, "called" is an -ed modifier that describes "the restaurant". However, in this case, we know from the context that this modifier applies to the time BEFORE the restaurant was renamed.
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Dear GMATNinja,

I agree with your 2 examples.

Here is OA : Fossils of the arm of a sloth, found in Puerto Rico in 1991, have been dated at 34 million years old, making the sloth the earliest known mammal on the Greater Antilles Islands.


FOUND happened in 1991. HAVE BEEN denotes the present.

However, I think the question at hand is about VERB-ING, not VERB-ED, modifier.
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 26 Jul 2020, 03:15
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Dear GMATNinja,

According to https://gmatclub.com/forum/by-1940-the- ... l#p2508180, you wrote:
GMATNinja

Now back to this question:

    "Jacqueline Cochran held seventeen official national and international speed records, earning them at a time..." - Here the "earning..." part seems to modify the entire preceding clause ("Cochran held..."). But does that really make sense? Was Cochran earning the records WHILE she was holding them? Does the "earning..." part tell us why or how she held the records?
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According to you, "earning" seems to happen simultaneously with the main verb. This contradicts what you wrote here (https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-chicago- ... l#p2575900) in this forum.

Please clarify :please:
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 26 Jul 2020, 03:20
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Dear GMATNinja,

Quote:

Generally, COMMA + VERBing serves to express an action happening AT THE SAME TIME AS the preceding action.
In B and C, the usage of COMMA + earning implies that JC was EARNING speed records when she HELD them -- a nonsensical meaning.
Clearly, JC must have earned the records BEFORE she held them.
Eliminate B and C.
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I think GMATGuruNY also agrees with RonPurewal. Both advocate that COMMA + VERBing needs to happen AT THE SAME TIME AS the main verb.

I'm confused here :(
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 01 Aug 2020, 08:28
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kornn
Dear GMATNinja,

According to https://gmatclub.com/forum/by-1940-the- ... l#p2508180, you wrote:
GMATNinja

Now back to this question:

    "Jacqueline Cochran held seventeen official national and international speed records, earning them at a time..." - Here the "earning..." part seems to modify the entire preceding clause ("Cochran held..."). But does that really make sense? Was Cochran earning the records WHILE she was holding them? Does the "earning..." part tell us why or how she held the records?
According to you, "earning" seems to happen simultaneously with the main verb. This contradicts what you wrote here (https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-chicago- ... l#p2575900) in this forum.

Please clarify :please:
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Again, the word originally makes all the difference in the world here. Without it, we would certainly have an issue -- it would seem as though the rivers are simultaneously flowing into the St. Lawrence and the Illinois/Mississippi Rivers, and that wouldn't make any sense (that's why "earning" was an issue in the other example you referenced).

The word "originally" allows us to understand the timing of the events with no ambiguity... the context is vital, and that's why this question and the other one that you referenced must be analyzed differently.

As I always say, there are very few concrete, black and white "rules" that you can blindly apply to GMAT SC. Just because something works in one correct answer choice doesn't mean that it's always correct. And just because something doesn't work in an incorrect answer choice doesn't mean that it's always wrong. That's why comparing sentences from different problems is rarely productive.

Also, there's a convenient "edit" button on the GMAT Club forum, so if you have more things to say about the same question, you can add to your original post -- so there's no need to write five separate posts on the same thing.

I hope that helps!
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 23 Oct 2020, 18:35
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bakfed
The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.

(B) Rivers had originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but they have been redirected by constructing

(E) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, have been redirected through the construction of
Show more


I was confused because of the option B & Option E.

The option B has a construction which is similar to the construction in the below questions.
Acc to my understanding , in option B had flowed is the first event. Have been directed is the second event. Even though 'have been' is in the perfect tense, can it be considered ok construction ?
If not , then why in the examples mentioned below perfect tense is used to mark a past event ? GMATNinja GMATNinjaTwo

https://gmatclub.com/forum/ozone-a-spec ... 21-20.html

https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-success- ... 63049.html
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 02 Jan 2021, 16:32
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Abhishekrao12
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.

(B) Rivers had originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but they have been redirected by constructing

(E) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, have been redirected through the construction of


I was confused because of the option B & Option E.

The option B has a construction which is similar to the construction in the below questions.
Acc to my understanding , in option B had flowed is the first event. Have been directed is the second event. Even though 'have been' is in the perfect tense, can it be considered ok construction ?
If not , then why in the examples mentioned below perfect tense is used to mark a past event ? GMATNinja GMATNinjaTwo

https://gmatclub.com/forum/ozone-a-spec ... 21-20.html

https://gmatclub.com/forum/the-success- ... 63049.html
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There are very few "rules" to GMAT SC that apply to every single question without fail -- after all, it is mostly a reasoning test, not a do-you-know-the-rules test.

Generally speaking, the past perfect tense is used for an action or state of being that started in the past and then ended in the past. Some convenient indicators of the proper use of past perfect are past tense verbs. For example, "By the time my guests arrived, I had already eaten the whole cheese platter by myself."

But just because the past tense "marker" is nice to have, is that the only way in which the past perfect can be properly used?

In the first example you linked, let's ignore any other issues with the sentence and focus on the tense of the first action:

    1) "Ozone, a special form of oxygen that screens out harmful ultraviolet rays, reaches high concentrations twelve miles above Earth, where it has long appeared that it was immune from human influence; we have now realized, though, that emissions of industrial chlorofluorocarbons deplete the ozone layer.

    2) "Ozone, a special form of oxygen that screens out harmful ultraviolet rays, reaches high concentrations twelve miles above Earth, where it had long appeared immune to human influence; we have now realized, though, that emissions of industrial chlorofluorocarbons deplete the ozone layer."

In this sentence, it is clear that it no longer appears that the ozone is immune from human influence. In other words, the action of "appearing" started in the past and ended in the past. So, it is completely illogical to use the present perfect tense in this case. Instead, we have to rely on the past perfect, because that's the only other option in our answer choices.

Here, the GMAT forces our hand to accept the past perfect, even though there is no "marker" in the simple past tense. So, there is no ironclad rule that prevents this construction on every single question.

However, just because something is allowed on one question doesn't mean that it's the best option on an entirely different question. Here are (B) and (E) for the question on this thread:
Quote:
(B) The Chicago and Calumet Rivers had originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but they have been redirected by constructing canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.
Show more
In this version of the sentence, we have the past perfect "had originally flowed." Is it wrong to use this tense? Not necessarily. But is it the best option that we're given out of the available options? We'll have to see whether another answer choice conveys the timeline in a simple, clear manner.

More importantly, we have to investigate the -ing word "constructing." Who, exactly, is constructing canals in this answer choice? As written, this sentence implies that the Chicago and Calumet Rivers are constructing the canals. This is clearly illogical, and is a strong reason to eliminate (B).

Here's (E):
Quote:
(E) The Chicago and Calumet Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, have been redirected through the construction of canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.
Show more

This neatly fixes both issues with (B). By changing "had originally flowed" to "originally flowing," the sentence gives us a clear and simple timeline of events. And by replacing "by constructing" with the more passive "through the construction of," (E) implies that someone else has constructed the canals, not the rivers themselves.

I hope that helps!
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 21 Jan 2022, 03:04
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bakfed
The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing canals so that the water now empties into the Mississippi by way of the Illinois River.

(A) Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by constructing

(B) Rivers had originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but they have been redirected by constructing

(C) Rivers, which originally flowed into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan but have been redirected by the construction of

(D) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, but having been redirected by the construction of

(E) Rivers, originally flowing into the St. Lawrence by way of Lake Michigan, have been redirected through the construction of
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if we read only original choice and we understand the intended meaning, everybody pass gmat and get into havard

when reading choice a, we need first to try to find the intended meaning. normally you do not understand anything. but if we focus on verb/action we can know how many action/verb in the choice a and you can guess the correct meaning relation between/among verb/ideas. correct meaning relation is the intended meaning. dont worry, if you guess wrongly because there is another choice , the official answer there, which offer correct meaning relation.

the critical step is to guess/find out the correct meaning relation between/among ideas/verbs and we perform this step immediately when we read choice a. normally, you can eliminate 2 or 3 choices easily because of structure problems. when faced with 2 remaining choice, we have to solve meaning problem. solving meaning problem means we have to find out the correct meaning relation between/among ideas /verbs. it is better to try to find the correct meaning relation. dont worry if you can not find the correct relation when you read choice A. the key skill is when you read choice a and other choice, focus on finding out the correct meaning relation.

be prepared to find out the correct meaning relation when you begin to solve sc.

1. read choice a, read by chunks, realize grammatical roles of each chunk when you read . realize 2 or 3 ideas/verb. guess the correct meaning relation between/among these verbs/ideas immediately . if you can not find the correct meaning relation, read other choice
2. read other choices, realize the correct meaning relation.

applying those skills.
read choice a, realizing two ideas/verbs, which are "flow" and "redirect" . guess the correct relation. the correct relation could be the river at first flow then is directed.
with this guess in mind, read other choices and confirm our guess.
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The Chicago and Calumet Rivers originally flowed into the St. Lawrence 31 Jan 2023, 04:26
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