Queen's MBA vs. Rotman MBA vs. Schulich MBA

Question

Queen's MBA vs. Rotman MBA vs. Schulich MBA

While there are discussions on Canadian B-Schools, most are relatively dated. Thus, I would love to hear your current thoughts on these three top-Canadian programs.

Note, I've purposely excluded UWO Ivey School of Business from the topic. While it is truly a fantastic program (and I would strongly recommend people to consider it), due their acutely off-cycle admissions process, applying/attending wouldn't work for me. For those interested in Ivey, check out: western-ontario-ivey-2012-calling-all-applicants-120269.html

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Here is the most updated information that I have on each school:

Queen's School of Business
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Duration: 1-Year (12 months)
Class Size: 117
Average Age: 29 years
Average Work Experience: 5 years
Average GMAT: 667
Placement Rate (6-months): 90%
Average Salary (2009): $89,711
Ranking: #1 in Canada by Business Week

Rotman School of Management
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Duration: 2-Year (20 months)
Class Size: 268
Average Age: 27 years
Average Work Experience: 4 years
Average GMAT: 648
Placement Rate (6-months): 89%
Average Salary (2009): $85,454
Ranking: #1 in Canada by the Financial Times

Schulich School of Business
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Duration: 2-Year (16 months)
Class Size: 390
Average Age: 28 years
Average Work Experience: 5 years
Average GMAT: 664
Placement Rate (3-months): 84%
Average Salary (2009): $86,917
Ranking: #1 in Canada by the Economist
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While many of the hard variables (GMAT, salary) point toward Queen's, it's important to consider the inherent disadvantages of only a 1-year program (difficult for career switchers) and not being in Toronto (recruitment/networking is more complicated).

I am seriously considering all three programs, and would LOVE to hear your feedback. This discussion also might serve to better familiarize prospective international students with Canadian offerings.

Cheers,

MattyBoy · Answer

Here is the data above in a more user-friendly format:

ffy9940 · Answer

thanks for your table. it is great. i applied all three plus McGill. only one offer and will see how others go.

deadlycat · Answer

Thanks for putting the time into gathering all the data into one spot. I’ll chip in with my thoughts on the three schools as well.

The main thing I don’t like about Queen the fact that it’s not located in Toronto. Toronto is the business capital of Canada, any school that’s not located here is at a great disadvantage, not only with respect to recruitment and networking but also with instructors and guest lecturer. Also Kingston is a small town with the Kingston penitentiary as its top tourist attraction. Contrasting this with the multicultural city of Toronto, and its diverse offering of ethnic food, cultures and festivals, it’s hard to justify Queen over either of the Toronto schools.

The one number that jumped out at me the list above is Rotman's GMAT score. At 648, that's quite pedestrian for a program that claims to be amongst the best in the world. This combines with Rotman’s high tuition rate when compared to their cross town rival Schulich’s make it seems like Rotman is looking for pay offs while Schulich is looking for the best available students.

Schulich has a few flaws of its own such as no interview and main campus being far from downtown but their low tuition and flexibility in part time and full time program have them as my overall top pick, with Rotman as a close second and Queen a distance third.

MattyBoy · Answer

Thanks for contributing DeadlyCat!

You bring up some really great points -- I fully agree that Queen's is at a geographic disadvantage vis-a-vis Toronto. This in turn has an impact on networking and guest-speaker opportunities. I think from a career perspective, my concern is less in terms of eventual placement (the stats Queen's are actually the strongest), but rather the lack internship opportunities which facilitate the transitioning between industries. Probably not the ideal program for some who is evaluating their career options.

Personally, I'll be attending Queen's this spring -- was accepted at UofT and waiting on Schulich. I based my decision on obviously brand, program, career opps, etc., but the deal breaker for me was the smaller intake class size and 1-year program. I feel that at any of the three schools I'd be able to achieve my career goals, thus I'd rather be surrounded by a tightknit community of strong students. I feel that the trade-off between living in Toronto vs. Kingston, is justified by the ability to forge stronger bonds with my classmates. Having done my undergrad in Montreal, I know firsthand that at metropolitan universities, the student communities are generally not as tight. Local students go home, and the sheer number of neighborhoods reduce the closeness between out-of-town students.

Likewise, I prefer Queen's vs. Toronto and York because of the relatively more demanding applicant screening. Queen's typically has a higher average GMAT and relatively more experienced applicants (usually slightly older, and work experience closer to ~5 years). As you mentioned, Rotman's GMAT is strikingly low and the fact the Schulich doesn't interview all applicants is very worrisome. With both Rotman and Schulich planning to increase the size of both their intakes over the next few years -- due to new construction and general expansion -- I expect this will be difficult to reverse.  Counter argument to that is Rotman and Schulich have, and will have, larger alumni networks. However, at what cost to quality?

But those are my two cents.

I think when you're choosing between Queen's, Rotman, York (or Ivey), you're already in a good place. It's more a question of fit with school culture and career objectives rather than hard rule.

Definitely shades of grey.

maroliv12 · Answer

I'll throw my 2 cents in here....I only applied to one program in canada, and that was Ivey. I think in terms of recruitment and employer perception, it stands clear of the other three schools for my purposes. In terms of education, I think Rotman, Queens, and Ivey are all similar quality. If you're looking for finance, I'd say Rotman is a better school for that. I think Queens might be a better 'program', but Rotman is pretty good for finance recruitment. Ivey usually places best into finance and consulting (out of the 18 people taken in September for IB associates out of 5 schools, Ivey took 6 and it has 40% less people in the class than Rotman), but Rotman is next. For your purposes, if you're completely switching careers, I'd say Rotman.

Also, I wouldn't even consider applying to Schulich. Go visit the class and speak to some MBA's and you'll see why. Let's say they have a 'diverse' spread of abilities....from very minimal to very good.

Also, I wouldn't even consider applying to Schulich. Go visit the class and speak to some MBA's and you'll see why. Let's say they have a 'diverse' spread of abilities....from very minimal to very good.

ffy9940 · Answer

I heard York MBA has many foreign students, some of them have really bad broken English. That is the downside of no interview.
I personally like Queen's the most. But I will still have to wait for other schools' decisions to decide.

MattyBoy · Answer

Hi Maroliv,

I agree with you all points -- particularly about your concerns regarding Schulich.

With regards to Ivey, I couldn't agree more. Having worked as an IB analyst in Canada, Ivey and Rotman certainly dominate the IB associates placements, with Queen's and McGill (from my experience) rounding out the pack. Likewise, career switchers should definitely look to Rotman.

In my case, I'm looking to move from IB (where I covered tech) to a VC/PE shop. From my what I've heard from people in the industry, internships (in Canada that is) are relatively uncommon: they either like you and hire you, or they don't. Teams in Canada tend to be smaller than in the US, thus the effort required to train/recruit interns is difficult to justify.

This negated my need for a two-year program; though Rotman does just fine placing people in this industry.

That said, both Ivey and Queen's are the two best schools in terms of placement and alumni bases with PEs and VCs. However, Ivey's recruitment was a bit too early for me -- strange how 1-2 months can make all the difference timing-wise. The small bonus was that in terms of VC funds (which is my preference over PE), Queen's has slightly stronger placement opportunities -- given their Tricolor Venture Fund.
 
 For those interested: The Tricolor Venture Fund is a MBA-run venture capital fund at Queen's managed by 5-7 students. The students make real investments in ventures, and are supervised by a advisory board consisting of several VC fund managers. Provides great networking opportunities, and hands-on learning experiences, for those breaking into the field.

So in my case, Queen's just fit.

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Does anyone know about placement rates (in terms of actual # of positions filled) for management consulting? Particularly the Big-3 (Bain, McKinsey, BCG)? I think each school touts its superiority in someway, but at the MBA-employment figures by sector are too convoluted to make an accurate call... Anybody have some  hard  data?

nikhilsrl · Answer

Good discussion, something I was looking forward to. Any idea about the demography in these schools. I am around 33 with 11 years in IT (6 years in management) and wanted to understand the outlook of these schools towards older candidates. I am still looking at MBA over exec MBA since I want to move to Marketing from Project management.

MattyBoy · Answer

Hi Nikhilsrl,

At 33, and given your 6 years in management, schools will probably push you toward their Executive MBA program. A large part of this has to do with placement rates, as they will be worried about finding you a job that suits your more experienced profile. Strange how that works, I know, but it is what it is.

That said, Canadian schools (warning:anecdotal) tend to be slightly less rigid with regards to age/experience. Given that you plan to make both an industry and functional shift, you will definitely need a 2-year program.

Here are my thoughts on the Canadian MBA landscape:
Queen's and Ivey: with 1-year programs each, both will be very very hesitant about taking you.
Rotman: Has 2-year program, but really not an expert in marketing -- heavy finance focus
Schulich: Probably your best choice of the pack, 2-year program plus some fairly strong marketing rep on the corporate/brand management side
McGill: If you speak french, or are willing to learn very very quickly, might be a good option. Lots of ad agencies in Montreal and the program is 2-years, allowing you to theoretically make the switch. Again, ONLY if you speak french, because otherwise it will be very hard finding a job.

I think the biggest challenge for you will be convincing the admissions committee: (1) why an MBA, and not executive MBA, (2) why marketing, why such a radical shift (this really has to be solid), and (3) that you have some basis to prove that your plan will be successful. I think that if you do these three things, you will get into one of these schools. Plus, you have a super solid GMAT, which won't hurt

In the end, a 2-year program at Schulich is probably your best bet. Good luck!

nikhilsrl

Good discussion, something I was looking forward to. Any idea about the demography in these schools. I am around 33 with 11 years in IT (6 years in management) and wanted to understand the outlook of these schools towards older candidates. I am still looking at MBA over exec MBA since I want to move to Marketing from Project management.

In the end, a 2-year program at Schulich is probably your best bet. Good luck!

nikhilsrl · Answer

Thanks Matty that was a very detailed response.

deadlycat · Answer

QS World MBA Tour in Toronto Tomorow: https://www.topmba.com/qs-world-mba-tour ... ca/toronto Heads up battle, Western vs. Queen at 1:00 pm, U of T vs. McMaster at 1:30 pm.

sullykma · Answer

What about the Scholarship's comparison...?!

gparmar16 · Answer

Great thread. Thanks for starting this Matty.

I'm starting my application for next year in a couple months and I've been diligently sifting through the Canadian B-schools. I appreciate the insight on Canadian companies view on Internships. I always wondered why the top schools were moving from 2 year to 1 year programs. This may explain a bit of it.

DaMan12 · Answer

I think the schools move to 1 year programs for money. Rotman charges 80k for 2 years (domestic student) which is considered a lot. Ivey charges 75k for 1 year!

mbagradsaregreat · Answer

We recruited from all these MBA programs, and Schulich by far had the worst average grad quality. Of course they had a couple decent students but overall it was a disappointment.

Rotman had students that seemed very academically inclined, while Ivery/Queens seemed like good all round.

Needless to say that while we continue to look at Schulich students, that brand is being tarnished by their lower admission standards.

deadlycat · Answer

Perhaps if you identify who "we" refers to, people might read your claims with less skepticism.

nikhilsrl · Answer

<img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" />

spider1234 · Answer

Hey everyone,

I have an interview at Schulich in the near future. I have not had an interview in years and was wondering if anyone can shed some light on what to expect (duration, questions, etc.). I would really appreciate if someone could help out. Thanks!

CRAZYBUBBA · Answer

I too would go with Queen's. The numbers seem to point in it's direction, but also the small group of close knit grads can help immensely.

Queen's MBA vs. Rotman MBA vs. Schulich MBA

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