16 Top US Business Schools Visited – Impressions

Question

Dear all,

A couple of months ago I happened to visit 16 top* business schools in the US. The regular visiting routine – class visit, infosession, lunch with students, campus tour. I‘d like to share my generalized impressions. Generalized – for the reason that in those couple of hours it is impossible to get a representative feel of the whole school with its dozens of classes and the whole student body with its hundreds of students. So I had to average out a bit the impressions.

• They do not differ that much. I mean, the schools. We, here in the forum, or with friends, or whomever else, try to find the bestest (pun inteded) of the best school for us. But I‘d say that one top b-school is different from another of the same league as much as a Chevrolet Corvette is different from a Dodge Viper. They ARE different, technically, but in my opinion the differences are mild (except the location and surrounding industries).

• The adcom staff at all schools underlined how unique that particular school was. If the school had a class of less than around 300 students, their advantage was „tightly knit community“. If the class was bigger, then diversity was the sales pitch. Oh, and all, ALL schools (students) said that they have heard that other schools have a rather competitive atmospheres. But not theirs!

• The content of the lectures. I have a bachelor‘s degree in business administration, so may be that is why I did not find the content of the lectures interesting per se. The same models, even the same examples and one familiar case. I started to think that if there are benefits to going to a b-school after an undergrad in business, these benefits must be anything but the lecture or textbook content. Network, social skills, leadership – agreed. The same business related classes as in undergrad – I‘d have second thoughts about that.

• The more quant a class, the more male dominant the audience. The derivatives class, laden with moderately complex maths, had 1 in 10 female students. Only one class out of more than 20 I attended had more than 50% of women students. It was a business ethics class.

• The majority of schools allow laptops in classrooms. Though, some don‘t. As a visitor I was usually placed in the back of the class and hence I could see what the students were doing on their PCs. Most often it was Facebook, career sections of corporate websites. Not so often – some material to aid the class.

• Eating in classrooms in general was the norm. I don‘t know whether it‘s the lack of time of MBA students, or the general culture of society, but I found it a bit awkward to see students crumpling wrappers or slurping noodles. Some classrooms had signs „NO DRINKS ALLOWED“, but, well, incidentally it was in that classroom that one student ran away with a coffee soaked Ipad.

• I could split the format of classes I attended into two rather neat categories: cases and lectures. Cases were mostly in the classes such as leadership and marketing, whereas lectures dominated quant classes. About each of the two:

o Cases are something to be filmed and put into a promotinal material. After any question about half the audience raise their hands and have things to say. And the students do adhere to the ground rules waiting to be called. Professors, also, are nothing less than awesome. Very animate, intelligent and with a sense of humour.

o Quant intensive lectures left a completely different impression. One example: the professor was asking whether anyone had done their homework – solving some math problem. No hands came up. „All right“, said the professor, „So did you have any trouble with the problem?“ No hands. „Could anyone try to calulate that value right now?“ No hands. At that moment I thought – come on, are these the people who wrote in their essays about leadership instances in their lives?... Later in the lecture it became obvious that no one actually had a clue about what the material was about. And they did not bother to ask the lecturer to stop, repeat, explain – nothing of the kind. The students sat with their head tucked into their laptops social networking. Felt like high-school. And it happened more than once in the very best schools so I conclude that quant classses, difficult as they are, are less fun to participate than case-studies, in which even I could have commented reasonably intelligently without reading the case.

• Campuses. More often than not, there is nothing more a reasonable person could wish for. An occasional parking problem, but then, why have a car in e.g. NY. But otherwise – great places to study or spend time otherwise.

• Number of international students, as reported by the schools, is often a misleading number. Usually it encompasses permanent residents of which there are many. The result is that people who did their undergrad in US or even have been living for 10+ years count as foreign nationals. The result is that out of the usual 25-35% international students less than half have come to US to study MBA only.

Now I want to underline that all of the above are my personal impressions from visiting the schools. They are not an insider‘s view. Neither they are representative of any single school. I could have participated in a poor or perfect class and hence made an incorrect conclusion. I try to accept limitations of my experience. Therefore the generalized view.

Hope you found this interesting. Any questions – I‘d be glad to answer.

*Stern, Columbia, Yale, HBS, Wharton, MIT, Babson, Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, Tuck, Kellogg, Booth, UCLA, Stanford, Haas.

gmatmba1 · Answer

you r missing one school. :lol:

method · Answer

More than one, the Ross/Darden/Fuqua set is missing, but those are probably 3 of the most out of the way schools when trying to do bulk visits. Then again, so is Cornell.

Great post though, I think there are a lot of similarities between schools too. But some schools really do have something about the program that's unique, or mostly unique. HBS/Darden for case, Ross for MAP, etc. Another differentiation is career placement, both in "prestige" densities and kinds of industries.

snipes · Answer

seems like a reasonable, if slightly cynical, portrayal.

mpg2011 · Answer

In regards to international students:

I can talk about Booth and probably Wharton - but both of these schools have around 35% of REAL international students for sure.

In my class of 2014 for Chicago, there are 20 born and raised Brazilians living the country to go get the MBA at Chicago. Wharton has a similar high number. Stanford have 12 Brazilians going this year. I actually just came back from a happy hour for Brazilians admitted to top US schools and there were a whole bunch of us. Surprisingly, Harvard seems to accept the least number of Brazilians - 11 - compared to Stanford's 12 with only 300 students. Chicago, Wharton, Kellogg, MIT, Stanford, Ross and Columbia have a BIG representation of Brazilians. I can only imagine that rings true to other countries as well. I also noticed A WHOLE lot of foreigners at Booth's ASW. Tuck, Duke, Darden, NYU, UCLA, USC, Berkeley and HBS seemed to have less Brazilian students. I

In regards to campus experience:

Eh, I don't think HBS' campus can be compared to Columbia's... HBS has a clear superior campus. As does Booth. I think Booth, HBS have superior campus than schools like Kellogg and Columbia - from what I visited.

auman · Answer

Hi,

I was planning a whirlwind tour of most of the colleges you visited. Just wanted to know how much it cost you for all of it.

apukas · Answer

Sure,

There were three groups of material expenses: transportation, accomodation and food. I tried my best to fit into 1 month and spend as little as possible.

My itinerary and transportation costs:

1. New York – Yale (New Haven) – New York. Took the Metro North train; ~30 USD.
2. New York – Philadelphia. Bus; ~10 USD – some special fare.
3. In Philadelphia I rented a car to visit Darden, Carnegie Mellon, Cornell and Tuck – in that order. The latter four are somewhat remote, so car was the cheapest option if viewed holistically. I.e. bus might be cheaper for the trip, but then I‘d have to spend an extra night in town.
4. Car rent cost ~200 USD for a week plus another 200 USD personal liability insurance. Not sure whether I name the insurance correctly, since in EU we usually have a car insured and it does not matter who drives the vehicle, whereas here I think the insurance insured the person driving, not the vehicle. I clocked around 3000 miles, so ~350 USD was spent on gas.
5. I returned the car in Philadelphia even though that meant a rather pointless drive from Hanover (Tuck). All for the sake of minimizing expenses – returning car in different location that it was picked up costs quite a lot, ~400 USD or so.
6. Philadelphia – Boston. Bus; ~40 USD.
7. Flight Boston – Chicago. ~100 USD.
8. Flight Chicago – Los Angeles. ~150 USD.
9. Los Angeles – San Francisco. Bus, ~50 USD.
10. Flight San Francisco – New York. ~180 USD.
11. Various inner city tickets / passes – ~100 USD (in NY, Chicago, San Francisco).

Accomodation costs:

Wherever I could, I stayed in youth hostels. If no hostel was present, for example when driving on the East Coast, I stayed in motels. Hostels cost ~35 USD per night; motels - ~50 USD per night.

Food:

Did not really track minutely. My guess is that I spent between 10 and 20 USD per day.

All in all  , the journey took 30 days; transportation cost ~1400 USD; accomodation - ~1200 USD; plus food.

Plus, I had to arrive in NY from Europe. I flew in from Warsaw. Cost ~600 USD, roundtrip.

apukas · Answer

I agree. How the curriculum is constructed may be a differentiating factor. Genereally it's first year of core courses and second year of electives, but e.g. Booth prides itself on giving more leeway from the start. Also, Wharton's Lauder program is a unique, albeit a niche proposition.

auman · Answer

Thanks a lot. Very informative.

doolittle · Answer

This is a great post. There's something about this site in particular that seems to get people very wound up about minor differences between schools, and in general business school students are far too caught up in the prestige of the various institutions and how it reflects on them. I've fallen prey to this kind of thinking myself, and regret the time and energy I wasted thinking that way. In reality, all of these schools can do what you need them to, and the fundamentals of the experience will be very similar.

If you have a very clear career goal in mind, then there may be certain schools that have meaningful advantages for you, but even then I would say the advantages are not what they are often made out to be. If you are good enough you can make any of these schools work for you. The main exception I would say is location, which can be hard to overcome. But even then it's perfectly doable - most schools have programs to help you make links in other geographies, and everyone on here will have examples of classmates who switched coasts or countries post-MBA.

It's also notable that the most impressive people at any school are, to my eyes, the ones who don't depend on the brand or the network or the professors to make them successful, credible businesspeople, whatever industry are in. They are more focused in their goals and view school as a means to an end, typically customizing the experience quite heavily and taking a lot more from it than the average student. It's a tough thing to do if it doesn't come naturally, but it's much more productive to think about it that way.

I spent a lot of time agonizing over my decision and did the same choosing between MBB firms for summer. After a point it's just not productive. All that energy and time could have been much better used, and the further you get through business school (and life in general?!) the more you tend to value energy and time as scarce and valuable resources. You just have to find what feels best and what works best for your specific career, financial and personal situation, and then forget about it and enjoy the experience. The guy down the road at some other school will always have something to say, but at the end of the day it's just noise. If you're good enough you'll succeed regardless, and regardless of where you go it's more than likely that you'll have an amazing experience.

highhopes · Answer

I would agree wholeheartedly with the initial post and also the one above mine.

I don't know what the cutoff is (15? 20?), but the top x schools will all offer very similar experiences (in all aspects - curriculum, career options, club activities, people, etc)

I think the comment about how every school said they were less competitive is spot on. People make generalizing statements like that all the time and it's all based on what the school's brand says they are and nothing to do with reality. It's almost like you're brainwashed as you go through the application phase and once you've spent so much time writing about their cliches, you start to buy into them.

I think the international complaint is true and I hear international students complaining about it on occasion.

I think curriculum is not an issue. Those schools that allow you to take electives earlier have typically cut out what should probably be core classes anyway and in some respects are because most people take them. Even things like MAP are a wash, other (all?) schools have something like this, it may just not be required.

Would agree completely that location should be an important deciding factor and that's not always obvious when choosing schools because they will always tell you that they have alumni everywhere. In fact, while I liked Duke, in hindsight I probably would've gone to Ross because it's closer to where I wanted to be location wise and would've opened more opportunities recruiting wise I think.

In the end it all works out, so don't stress.

method · Answer

Out of curiosity, which schools other than Ross have an 8-week, full-time team project during which all classes are cancelled, and 50% of the opportunities are international as part of the curriculum?

Honestly, if MAP isn't a differentiation, I want to know which schools are offering the same thing.

cheetarah1980 · Answer

Yeah, what he said. MAP was the main thing that drew me to Ross. I think that Johnson does an immersion program in the second semester of the 1st year but I don't even think that is to the scale of MAP. I think the difference with MAP is that it really it's almost 100% experiential vs. 60% classroom w/ 40% "experiential," which sometimes isn't even hands on work. The fact that it's not optional is different from the "lab" classes that CBS, Kellogg, Booth, etc. offer.

Yes I do think that the schools are similar in many ways, but I do think there are enough differences between them that an applicant can't just apply aimlessly and expect to have the same experience.

AK_X3 · Answer

He/she's not saying that other schools have programs exactly like MAP. he/she's is saying that other schools clearly don't have MAP, but that they have other different programs which are used like MAP as catchy methods of differentiating themselves from competitors. However, no student will choose Ross primarily for the MAP program over other characteristics when comparing schools. Instead students will look at more important differences such as the location, alumni networks, teaching methods, and career possibilities/strengths.

method · Answer

Sorry, saying all schools have something like MAP is like saying all schools use cases some of the time so 100% case method is a wash too.

AK_X3 · Answer

Not quite. If you absolutely love case study, that will launch Darden and HBS to the top of your list. If you can't stand the case study, you should eliminate Darden right away. If you think MAP is a great idea, that single difference will probably not have the same effect in moving Ross up the list. In the same way, even if you wouldn't prefer doing MAP, that would not eliminate Ross from all consideration. If you're looking to stay in the midwest, there's a very good chance Ross would still be a very strong school to be considered.

I'm not negging MAP, I personally love that teaching method. However, if I choose to pursue Ross it won't be because of MAP. It will be because I like the student culture, the teaching methods, its reputation, its alumni network, and its ability to place me in Chicago after graduation. I would place it more towards a differentiator such as Booth's Random Walks, NYC Schools Wall Street Events, Stanford's student conferences, and Tuck's community student events. While a contributor, each of these would not be a key factor in my decision to enroll in the school and each school has special things like these, thus when ranking schools as a community against each other overall like we are on this forum, I would count them as a wash. It'd be more similar to ranking the case method vs. other methods of teaching for an MBA. You can't actually rank that, it's only an opinion, so in a community facing forum we would count that as a wash. On the other hand, we can absolutely rank schools by factors such as heir ability to place students regionally, their alumni networks, and their endowments.

highhopes · Answer

I'm not saying that MAP isn't a good program, it is. It's certainly a good learning experience and I'm sure you'll look back on it and love it. Just like every MBA student looks back and loves almost everything about their MBA program.

I'm simply trying to share what I've learned and provide some perspective, because frankly, I think when people visit schools they are fed a lot of propaganda. I think it's further perpetuated by students then spreading that same message to prospective students and making comparisons to schools they haven't experienced first hand. It may seem like I'm doing the same thing, however, I'm kind of doing the opposite. Having lived through it I just don't see how these differences matter in the grand scheme of things.

I'll elaborate on this whole MAP thing. I'll compare with Fuqua because it's what I know. There are loads of opportunities to get the same type of experiences as what you get in MAP. For example, in terms of structured programs, most people would consider GCP to be most close to what MAP offers. It's of course not the same as MAP, I've already said that, but the structure is very similar. It's a six credit class with a two week trip to visit the company you're consulting for. You're going to pick up the same skills and be able to talk about it in the same way that you would a MAP project. There are a bunch of opportunities to do independent study projects (including projects sponsored by companies that are on the MAP list). So, while it might be structured differently I just don't see it mattering that much - there are no shortage of experiential learning opportunities. Now, you might say I'm not qualified to make comparisons, but neither are you.

My point is merely that in the end, it's not rocket science. You don't know what you don't know. You may think you would love the case method and then get there and find out you kind of hate it. You might think it's your calling in life to become an investment banker and then find out it kind of sucks. MAP might be awesome, but you get stuck with the one bad experience. Just go to a school that you like with people that you enjoy and let the chips fall where they may.

method · Answer

A key difference between your line of thinking and mine is that I'm not trying to force my decision-making weights down anyone's throat and assume what people count as a wash.

My point was that MAP, by the nature of its depth and quality, is a differentiator, which you've affirmed right here in your quote. How people choose to use this differentiator in their decision making process is completely up to them.

What often ends up happening is that people make pros and cons lists, essentially creating groups of differentiators and then ranking them by individual importance. Why do they do this? Because often times, a single differentiator does not carry enough weight to end the decision making process, nor does it need such colossal weight to make the pro/con list in the first place. The fact that MAP alone would not sway  your  decision does not preclude it from existing as a differentiator, nor playing a part in other people's decision making process. Furthermore, as you've supported, weights and lists are unique to each individual. Some people have strong geographical needs, some people are geographically indifferent. Some people care about teaching method, some do not. Some care about experiential learning, some do not. But in the end, just because  you  consider something a wash or less valuable, does not making it universally true, no matter how much you emphasize points that can be "ranked."

I don't assume to care what people value. I merely made a point that MAP is a differentiator. See below?

method · Answer

No one is debating whether or not MAP is a good program.

From my perspective, there is no shortage of case method lessons at Ross. And that's my point in the post above to AK, it's a highly individual thing to try making universal. We value and see things differently a lot of times, (message: diversity!) I do appreciate you taking a pre-emptive strike to tell me that I'm not qualified to make a comparison based on something you thought I "might" say. Very, very endearing.

I agree, it's not rocket science, and enjoy the ride.

AK_X3 · Answer

Method, I think we're a lot closer aligned than you think. As I've stated in my previous points, I recognize that MAP is a differentiator with value that students should consider. That is clear, it is unique to Ross and should factor into the decision of the student.

My logic is that in the grand scheme of things, it usually will have less weight than other factors. As you've stated, for some students, it will not. However, the majority of students will put more weight on factors such as location, career placement, community, and teaching methods. This is a largely the method for most students. When you begin with your list of top 25 schools, you begin eliminating by these factors first because they own the most weight. However, when a student is picking Ross vs. Fuqua or Ross vs. another similar school, I can definitely see MAP coming into effect.

However, this is a forum for a student that visited 16 schools. They clearly have not eliminated any schools yet. Thus, at this point in the ranking I would count MAP as a wash. Perhaps somewhere along the process he may really fall in love with MAP and that will ultimately sway his decision. But at this point in his decision making process on that pro-con list, I would emphasize other factors and just mention that all schools have excellent unique programs that add extra value to each school.

I think that's where our confusion is. I clearly see the value of MAP and see where it would be a defining factor in where you go to school, but in the context of this forum, its value should be lower in this student's decision of where to pursue an MBA if he is a typically values the same factors as most prospective MBA students on these forums.

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