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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 14 Oct 2015, 12:53
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 14 Oct 2015, 12:55
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outsidethesidelines
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Looking at the personal adversity stories all around, I think they dont count in this day and age. I have lost confidence in my essays as well.

I think it presents a very tricky issue.

Ideally, if I had my preference? To hell with personal adversity stories, give me professional success stories. Give me a well-to-do background that resulted in a 3.75 at an Ivy League school, a few years at McKinsey, family ties to a school, recommendation letters from two name executives, and a good-enough GMAT, and that's going to trump probably 99% of the personal adversity stories out there. Unless you just have some really crazy story -- say, you survived the civil war in Sierra Leone, escaped to Guinea and overcame extreme poverty -- you're never beating out that applicant for an offer of admission with your personal adversity story.

If that's not your background, though, what do you do? That was basically my dilemma. I wrote about my personal story not so much out of desire as out of necessity. Much of what I have done in my life, in a lot of ways, really just doesn't make sense unless you can place it in the context of my personal story, so I felt (and believed I am) compelled to write about it. That puts you in a difficult situation as an applicant because, I do believe you are right, admissions committees really couldn't care less about them, but what else are you to do? You are who you are, and you have to tell your story, even if others may be better. You can't churn out alternate history just because admissions committees may prefer it.

I think much of this simply goes back to the notion that when you apply to an MBA program, you simply have to put yourself out there to the admissions committee, hope for the best, and be willing to accept the end result, whatever that may entail. It's a very introspective, revealing process, and you've just got to make yourself okay with the possibility of getting passed over.
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Completely agree with your second paragraph, not so much your first. I am a white American, but grew up fairly poor and dealt with family medical issues, thing I connected a little bit to my professional arc in my MBA essays, but I really wouldn't change it to instead be born with a silver spoon. For acceptance metrics, sure, but I value who I am as a person and how that experience has shaped my outlook and worldview today.

Be who you are, take pride in it, and make no apologies.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 14 Oct 2015, 13:00
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kman3b18
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Denied.

For the record: 760 GMAT, Hispanic, first generation to go to college, immigrant parents, underprivileged upbringing, fluent Spanish, 6 years WE in consumer products and finance, 3.18 Econ GPA from a public ivy w/ upper-level math courses, CFA Level III Candidate.

While American Hispanic is certainly an URM, I think for the purposes of elite B-Schools it doesn't hold weight. The way they massage stats they get far and away a ton of very competitive hispanic/latino minorities from Central and South America. Just the way it is. As of now I think the only two real URMs are black (either African American or African), and to a lesser extent female, although this second one is already fading away based on recent stats. And if you're a black female with decent scores and a decent story, well you can basically write your own ticket.
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This isn't right. They segregate US URM and international students on their class profiles. So, no, they don't make up their US URM "quota" with Goldman Sachs dudes from South America. See link below:

https://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/class ... fault.aspx
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 14 Oct 2015, 13:05
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Denied.

For the record: 760 GMAT, Hispanic, first generation to go to college, immigrant parents, underprivileged upbringing, fluent Spanish, 6 years WE in consumer products and finance, 3.18 Econ GPA from a public ivy w/ upper-level math courses, CFA Level III Candidate.

While American Hispanic is certainly an URM, I think for the purposes of elite B-Schools it doesn't hold weight. The way they massage stats they get far and away a ton of very competitive hispanic/latino minorities from Central and South America. Just the way it is. As of now I think the only two real URMs are black (either African American or African), and to a lesser extent female, although this second one is already fading away based on recent stats. And if you're a black female with decent scores and a decent story, well you can basically write your own ticket.

This isn't right. They segregate US URM and international students on their class profiles. So, no, they don't make up their US URM "quota" with Goldman Sachs dudes from South America. See link below:

https://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/class ... fault.aspx
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In fact, simple math, you can probably deduce that 4% of the class profile last cycle were US permanent residents that overlapped with both the US URM and international groups.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 14 Oct 2015, 13:06
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Denied.

For the record: 760 GMAT, Hispanic, first generation to go to college, immigrant parents, underprivileged upbringing, fluent Spanish, 6 years WE in consumer products and finance, 3.18 Econ GPA from a public ivy w/ upper-level math courses, CFA Level III Candidate.

While American Hispanic is certainly an URM, I think for the purposes of elite B-Schools it doesn't hold weight. The way they massage stats they get far and away a ton of very competitive hispanic/latino minorities from Central and South America. Just the way it is. As of now I think the only two real URMs are black (either African American or African), and to a lesser extent female, although this second one is already fading away based on recent stats. And if you're a black female with decent scores and a decent story, well you can basically write your own ticket.

This isn't right. They segregate US URM and international students on their class profiles. So, no, they don't make up their US URM "quota" with Goldman Sachs dudes from South America. See link below:

Show more

Interesting, although that US stat does include US permanent residents which may add a little skew. I'd be interested to see the raw data.

Anyways, I think my point still holds (and I'm not hating on you, I'm a white male after all so maybe join the club?). At least anecdotally, I seem to know/knew way more Hispanic MBA candidate rock stars than black ones. Maybe there is some selection bias there on my part, but who knows.
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kman3b18
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While American Hispanic is certainly an URM, I think for the purposes of elite B-Schools it doesn't hold weight. The way they massage stats they get far and away a ton of very competitive hispanic/latino minorities from Central and South America. Just the way it is. As of now I think the only two real URMs are black (either African American or African), and to a lesser extent female, although this second one is already fading away based on recent stats. And if you're a black female with decent scores and a decent story, well you can basically write your own ticket.

This isn't right. They segregate US URM and international students on their class profiles. So, no, they don't make up their US URM "quota" with Goldman Sachs dudes from South America. See link below:


Interesting, although that US stat does include US permanent residents which may add a little skew. I'd be interested to see the raw data.

Anyways, I think my point still holds (and I'm not hating on you, I'm a white male after all so maybe join the club?). At least anecdotally, I seem to know/knew way more Hispanic MBA candidate rock stars than black ones. Maybe there is some selection bias there on my part, but who knows.
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Yes, and as I wrote, I believe that PR number is 4% by adding up the respective %s.

With regard to the race/international conversation, does anyone have any insight into the following: could it be that a main reason why so few of the international applicants are from South America or Africa is because the school(s) already get this needed "diversity" here in the States (including getting the added "bonus" of seeming progressive)? Conclusion: such a "progressive" focus on US URMs may be the deathblow to qualified South American and African candidates.
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This isn't right. They segregate US URM and international students on their class profiles. So, no, they don't make up their US URM "quota" with Goldman Sachs dudes from South America. See link below:

[/quote]

Interesting, although that US stat does include US permanent residents which may add a little skew. I'd be interested to see the raw data.

Anyways, I think my point still holds (and I'm not hating on you, I'm a white male after all so maybe join the club?). At least anecdotally, I seem to know/knew way more Hispanic MBA candidate rock stars than black ones. Maybe there is some selection bias there on my part, but who knows.[/quote]

Yes, and as I wrote, I believe that PR number is 4% by adding up the respective %s.

With regard to the race/international conversation, does anyone have any insight into the following: could it be that a main reason why so few of the international applicants are from South America or Africa is because the school(s) already get this needed "diversity" here in the States (including getting the added "bonus" of seeming progressive)? Conclusion: such a "progressive" focus on US URMs may be the deathblow to qualified South American and African candidates.[/quote]

Interesting point. I went online and saw that Africans only make up 1 percent of the student body. Or 14 kids. So say the application admission rate is 10 percent. Do you think significantly more than 140 kids from Africa applied? And of those who applied, how many had GMATs and Toefels that were up to snuff. ****, if I had to take a GMAT in a secondary language I would be screwed. Because of language barriers I would imagine most admitted Africans are from Nigeria or South Africa(English speaking and strong economies).

But, I just don't think being from Africa hurts an application. I really can't imagine an ADCOM running a tally of how many dark skinned people are admitted a year - and once hitting the quota shutting the doors. I think Africans are competing more with other international applicants and for obvious England has an economy and schooling system that spews out more HBS types than
that of Sudan.
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thinkdifferent
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WL after interview is better than WL before interview.

that makes sense I guess.

Can someone explain why?
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WL from R1 before the interview practically means that you have the same chances with everybody that applies to R2.
WL after the interview (I think that exists only at R2) means that you will be offered a position if some people that have been offered a position at HBS do not accept them. The vast majority of the people accept but every year there are people who do not.

Your chances are low but still exist! I know a person from last year's intake that was WL in R1, invited to interview in R2 and finally got an offer.
Keep working on your plan B as well. :)
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 14 Oct 2015, 14:47
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MBAAlex120
This isn't right. They segregate US URM and international students on their class profiles. So, no, they don't make up their US URM "quota" with Goldman Sachs dudes from South America. See link below:

Show more

Interesting, although that US stat does include US permanent residents which may add a little skew. I'd be interested to see the raw data.

Anyways, I think my point still holds (and I'm not hating on you, I'm a white male after all so maybe join the club?). At least anecdotally, I seem to know/knew way more Hispanic MBA candidate rock stars than black ones. Maybe there is some selection bias there on my part, but who knows.[/quote]

Yes, and as I wrote, I believe that PR number is 4% by adding up the respective %s.

With regard to the race/international conversation, does anyone have any insight into the following: could it be that a main reason why so few of the international applicants are from South America or Africa is because the school(s) already get this needed "diversity" here in the States (including getting the added "bonus" of seeming progressive)? Conclusion: such a "progressive" focus on US URMs may be the deathblow to qualified South American and African candidates.[/quote]

Interesting point. I went online and saw that Africans only make up 1 percent of the student body. Or 14 kids. So say the application admission rate is 10 percent. Do you think significantly more than 140 kids from Africa applied? And of those who applied, how many had GMATs and Toefels that were up to snuff. ****, if I had to take a GMAT in a secondary language I would be screwed. Because of language barriers I would imagine most admitted Africans are from Nigeria or South Africa(English speaking and strong economies).

But, I just don't think being from Africa hurts an application. I really can't imagine an ADCOM running a tally of how many dark skinned people are admitted a year - and once hitting the quota shutting the doors. I think Africans are competing more with other international applicants and for obvious England has an economy and schooling system that spews out more HBS types than
that of Sudan.[/quote]

Yeah but still, I'd like to see the figures concerning how many applicants are from Africa and Central/South America and their respective, average acceptance rates. It's interesting that the bottom two regions of the world are conveniently the top two US URM ethnic backgrounds accepted into school programs.

Just saying, the data seems to suggest some ethnic selection. The truth isn't always PC.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 14 Oct 2015, 14:50
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Dinged. 740, 3.93 GPA at a "public ivy" (business undergrad), 3 years WE at an institutional investment shop. Disappointed, but such is life. Congrats to all those who received invites, and good luck to those applying in R2!
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Dinged.
Latin America. 740 Gmat. Top 10% of a top engineering university. CFA. 8 years of WE. mid-size partner at an investment management company. Head of investment division.

I thought I had a small shot. I asked myself, why not me? The fact is that is very competitive and many incredible people got dinged. I feel ok about it, but I still wonder what makes one profile get accepted.

I have a great work experience. Many incredible professional achievements, as I am sure most of you have too. Still, that was not enough for me.

My essay was a mix o personal and professional stories that shaped me in the person who I am today. The core of this essay was the same I used for Booth. I got dinged at HBS and got an interview invite from Chicago. I still can't figure out what goes on in the head of the admissions people...

In the end I am just happy that I gave my best in all my applications. We cannot change our collor, age, sex (well, some people do), work experience, GPA, ... the list goes on.

So, just send the best application possible and hope for the best!

Good luck to all and congratulations to those who got invited. This is already a great achievement. Be proud of it!
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outsidethesidelines
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Looking at the personal adversity stories all around, I think they dont count in this day and age. I have lost confidence in my essays as well.

I think it presents a very tricky issue.

Ideally, if I had my preference? To hell with personal adversity stories, give me professional success stories. Give me a well-to-do background that resulted in a 3.75 at an Ivy League school, a few years at McKinsey, family ties to a school, recommendation letters from two name executives, and a good-enough GMAT, and that's going to trump probably 99% of the personal adversity stories out there. Unless you just have some really crazy story -- say, you survived the civil war in Sierra Leone, escaped to Guinea and overcame extreme poverty -- you're never beating out that applicant for an offer of admission with your personal adversity story.

If that's not your background, though, what do you do? That was basically my dilemma. I wrote about my personal story not so much out of desire as out of necessity. Much of what I have done in my life, in a lot of ways, really just doesn't make sense unless you can place it in the context of my personal story, so I felt (and believed I am) compelled to write about it. That puts you in a difficult situation as an applicant because, I do believe you are right, admissions committees really couldn't care less about them, but what else are you to do? You are who you are, and you have to tell your story, even if others may be better. You can't churn out alternate history just because admissions committees may prefer it.

I think much of this simply goes back to the notion that when you apply to an MBA program, you simply have to put yourself out there to the admissions committee, hope for the best, and be willing to accept the end result, whatever that may entail. It's a very introspective, revealing process, and you've just got to make yourself okay with the possibility of getting passed over.
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Excellent text. I think you have summarized why one should not feel overconfident of getting an invite or over pessimistic of not getting one from HBS.

Your story will be compelling to a school if you have done your job of making it clear through your essays. Not everybody is fit for HBS or Stanford, and admissions committee are there to check if they see you as a part of the school.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 15 Oct 2015, 10:02
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MBAAlex120
I mostly completely agree. Adcoms want people who have been extremely successful, have family connections and are in the right prep circles. Those people with that upbringing will continue to be successful because their network will not allow otherwise(those people are also smart and talented). So when these kids reach inevitable success, HBS can take credit. Makes sense, I would do the same.

That being said, the entire class cannot be white dudes from Greenwich, CT. People who overcame adversity bring a needed perspective to case discussions and making sure HBS does not become just a frat. But, and idk the numbers, maybe a 10 percent of the class are those folks who overcame, and like 40 percent of the applicant pool. I would say most people who didnt have a crazy resume played some sort of overcoming adversity card(whether real or not). Off those going with the adversity angle, I am sure the ones with the best stats and resumes were selected ---- not somebody who overcame the most(certainly an exception or two).
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It's not all white dudes from Connecticut, certainly not, but the class does overwhelmingly consist of people -- male and female, from across the globe, with differing ethnic backgrounds -- that come from privilege and that is my broader point.

One of the key recruiting tactics for a program like HBS is to co-opt inevitable success, which you touched on. They want to identify people who are, without doubt, going to be highly successful in their careers, and then use that connection to further their own brand name, generate influence, and enhance their fundraising. Just as applicants work their their tails off to get an offer from a top school, these schools, too, are also looking for the golden ticket.

None of this is to say that adversity stories are totally useless, or that fundamental merit isn't the deciding factor among those in that pool, it is simply to say that the odds of admissions success are lower for people with that background. At a program like HBS, you're not one of 10,500 applicants competing for the 1,000 spots. More realistically, you are one of the, say, 7,500 competing for the 100 spots. The odds are just more daunting to the extent that many people from privileged backgrounds are going to be able to present with applications (schools, work experience, contacts) that those from adversity-mired backgrounds -- who typically hail from public universities, with few, if any, connections, and some pedestrian work experience from when they were just trying to make ends meet -- just cannot realistically compete with.

And I know may all sound somewhat jaded, but it's really not, it's just trying to keep a realistic perspective on the enormity of what many people are trying to do by applying to a program like HBS. Again, I think it just all goes back to be willing to put yourself out there, while having the strength to accept rejection.
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kman3b18
Completely agree with your second paragraph, not so much your first. I am a white American, but grew up fairly poor and dealt with family medical issues, thing I connected a little bit to my professional arc in my MBA essays, but I really wouldn't change it to instead be born with a silver spoon. For acceptance metrics, sure, but I value who I am as a person and how that experience has shaped my outlook and worldview today.

Be who you are, take pride in it, and make no apologies.
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Oh absolutely, I agree entirely with you. There was a point in my life where I was ashamed of my background, and tried to bury it as much as possible. As I grew older, though, I realized there was no shame in any of it and that I should instead take great pride in what I accomplished. It's kind of strange to describe, but it really does instill in you a deep-seated sense of fulfillment, and I wouldn't trade the experience for a thing in hindsight.

I'm just speaking solely to chances of admissions success here, and on that front it's just the harsh reality of the process. Take, for example, my age, ethnicity, basic work experience, GPA, GMAT, and essay-writing ability. Now substitute the state school for an Ivy League school, substitute the small law firm for a white shoe firm, and make my father a CBS alum instead of a retired blue collar worker living off of disability. Do I get an offer of admission, then? Perhaps so, perhaps I still get dinged. But I would bet dollars to pennies that the chances of me ending up in the interview stack, as opposed to the garbage receptacle, would be far higher under that scenario. Again, though, that is what it is and I knew all of that long before I started to apply. I'm at peace with the rejection, and just hoping one of my other apps will come through.

As a general matter, I think the mentality in place with drafts for sports leagues needs to be put into effect by applicants going through the MBA admissions process. In other words, it doesn't matter if almost all of the schools you apply to hate you, think you are going nowhere, that your background is unimpressive, etc... all you need is one "yes." With one "yes," the rest becomes meaningless background noise.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 15 Oct 2015, 11:01
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Completely agree with your second paragraph, not so much your first. I am a white American, but grew up fairly poor and dealt with family medical issues, thing I connected a little bit to my professional arc in my MBA essays, but I really wouldn't change it to instead be born with a silver spoon. For acceptance metrics, sure, but I value who I am as a person and how that experience has shaped my outlook and worldview today.

Be who you are, take pride in it, and make no apologies.

Oh absolutely, I agree entirely with you. There was a point in my life where I was ashamed of my background, and tried to bury it as much as possible. As I grew older, though, I realized there was no shame in any of it and that I should instead take great pride in what I accomplished. It's kind of strange to describe, but it really does instill in you a deep-seated sense of fulfillment, and I wouldn't trade the experience for a thing in hindsight.

I'm just speaking solely to chances of admissions success here, and on that front it's just the harsh reality of the process. Take, for example, my age, ethnicity, basic work experience, GPA, GMAT, and essay-writing ability. Now substitute the state school for an Ivy League school, substitute the small law firm for a white shoe firm, and make my father a CBS alum instead of a retired blue collar worker living off of disability. Do I get an offer of admission, then? Perhaps so, perhaps I still get dinged. But I would bet dollars to pennies that the chances of me ending up in the interview stack, as opposed to the garbage receptacle, would be far higher under that scenario. Again, though, that is what it is and I knew all of that long before I started to apply. I'm at peace with the rejection, and just hoping one of my other apps will come through.

As a general matter, I think the mentality in place with drafts for sports leagues needs to be put into effect by applicants going through the MBA admissions process. In other words, it doesn't matter if almost all of the schools you apply to hate you, think you are going nowhere, that your background is unimpressive, etc... all you need is one "yes." With one "yes," the rest becomes meaningless background noise.
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Some correct assumptions. However; you are choosing to ignore the fact that someone who has come from nothing can go to the ivy league and then a top firm. Maybe lower chances, but maybe not depending on your background.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 15 Oct 2015, 12:02
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Completely agree with your second paragraph, not so much your first. I am a white American, but grew up fairly poor and dealt with family medical issues, thing I connected a little bit to my professional arc in my MBA essays, but I really wouldn't change it to instead be born with a silver spoon. For acceptance metrics, sure, but I value who I am as a person and how that experience has shaped my outlook and worldview today.

Be who you are, take pride in it, and make no apologies.

Oh absolutely, I agree entirely with you. There was a point in my life where I was ashamed of my background, and tried to bury it as much as possible. As I grew older, though, I realized there was no shame in any of it and that I should instead take great pride in what I accomplished. It's kind of strange to describe, but it really does instill in you a deep-seated sense of fulfillment, and I wouldn't trade the experience for a thing in hindsight.

I'm just speaking solely to chances of admissions success here, and on that front it's just the harsh reality of the process. Take, for example, my age, ethnicity, basic work experience, GPA, GMAT, and essay-writing ability. Now substitute the state school for an Ivy League school, substitute the small law firm for a white shoe firm, and make my father a CBS alum instead of a retired blue collar worker living off of disability. Do I get an offer of admission, then? Perhaps so, perhaps I still get dinged. But I would bet dollars to pennies that the chances of me ending up in the interview stack, as opposed to the garbage receptacle, would be far higher under that scenario. Again, though, that is what it is and I knew all of that long before I started to apply. I'm at peace with the rejection, and just hoping one of my other apps will come through.

As a general matter, I think the mentality in place with drafts for sports leagues needs to be put into effect by applicants going through the MBA admissions process. In other words, it doesn't matter if almost all of the schools you apply to hate you, think you are going nowhere, that your background is unimpressive, etc... all you need is one "yes." With one "yes," the rest becomes meaningless background noise.

Some correct assumptions. However; you are choosing to ignore the fact that someone who has come from nothing can go to the ivy league and then a top firm. Maybe lower chances, but maybe not depending on your background.
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^This. I didn't come from much and did the above, but I don't really think of it that way. In one sense, it's dangerous thinking to remember where you came from as you're much more likely to stop challenging yourself and settle since you've already done great. But this would lead you astray from reaching your full potential. In my essay, I talked very little about the challenges I faced and much more about what I care about, why I care about it, and what I want to do about it.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 16 Oct 2015, 06:57
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Prospective2016
However; you are choosing to ignore the fact that someone who has come from nothing can go to the ivy league and then a top firm. Maybe lower chances, but maybe not depending on your background.
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Definitely some people out there that fit that profile, and, wow, absolutely tip my hat to them. Truly incredible accomplishment. To me, someone who can accomplish something like that deserves offers from HBS, GSB, and the like, and I assume they probably get them, too.

On the whole, though, I still think that candidates with that type of profile still represent a very small portion of the overall applicant pool, even at a program like HBS. I would guess perhaps 50 matriculants to a program like HBS, or maybe 100 at most, fall under that category. Imagine the other 90-95% of seats are distributed to the privileged, middle class kids, and those from tough backgrounds that don't have that sort of resume.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 16 Oct 2015, 07:02
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In my essay, I talked very little about the challenges I faced and much more about what I care about, why I care about it, and what I want to do about it.
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As I wrote essays on my later-in-time apps, I actually de-emphasized personal background quite a bit, just because I didn't think it would be particularly effective to rely heavily on it (as I did to a greater extent with the HBS essay). I essentially just tried to reference my background, putting it out there without really expounding upon the gritty details, and then moving on to my accomplishments/goals/motivations. The idea (i.e. hope) being that admissions committees would pick up on it and have that as context for looking at my academic and professional history.

Really don't know if that was a good move or not on my end, and I guess time will tell, but that was my logic.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 16 Oct 2015, 14:40
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Hi all, as a current HBS student, I want to encourage you to visit campus and interact with the students. I think you would be truly surprised by the level of diversity that exists here. My classmates are also ridiculously accomplished. It's truly humbling to learn about the amazing things that they have done. I don't think anyone was accepted (or rejected) predominately because of their race, gender, disadvantaged background, etc.
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Calling all Harvard Applicants: (2016 Intake) Class of 2018!! 16 Oct 2015, 14:53
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DefyingGravity
Hi all, as a current HBS student, I want to encourage you to visit campus and interact with the students. I think you would be truly surprised by the level of diversity that exists here. My classmates are also ridiculously accomplished. It's truly humbling to learn about the amazing things that they have done. I don't think anyone was accepted (or rejected) predominately because of their race, gender, disadvantaged background, etc.
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That isn't what we are saying. We are saying that despite those qualities, we were still rejected. I for one believed that I was a great fit for the school and a part of that had to do with my underprivileged, minority upbringing. What the guys are saying on here is that perhaps what we see as accomplishments in our personal and professional lives (rising up from the ghetto and working at a top firm) isn't all that impressive to Harvard. This is the conversation's topic.
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