Mendoza vs. Kelley

Question

Update: Recently received an offer with a substantial fellowship from Mendoza.

I’ve admits from Mendoza ($70k fellowship), Kelley ($30k fellowship), and Tippie (full-tuition scholarship). I’m an international student and intend to work in the U.S. post-MBA. I’ll highly appreciate if you guys can help me decide on a school. Cost is a very important factor in my decision.

Post-MBA I’m looking for a career preferably in finance. But i'll look for a range of options including strategy and consulting. One of the reasons why I'm doing an MBA is I wanna try new things. My heart is/was set on Kelley but as I said cost is an important factor in the decision and Kelley isn't offering much. I tried to negotiate with them but of no use.

Mendoza 
+ The most prestigious brand (Notre Dame) among the three
+ strong in finance
+ extremely effective alumni network
+ handsome scholarship
- In my conversation with internationals I have found out internships are very hard to find but full-time numbers are better
- Notre Dame is a known brand across the country but do recruiters look at its MBA with same respect?

Kelley 
+ Best brand among the four
+ Kelley’s culture, they are the happiest bunch of all and very supportive
+ I really like the structure of the program. Jump Start, Me Inc, Kelley’s Academies, faculty everything is great
+ Living is cheap in Bloomington
- Remote location. Bloomington is kind of isolated
- Costly: including living expenses it will cost me about $105K. That’s a lot of money for me. As an international I can only take loan from prodigy and there rates are outrageous

Tippie 
+ Including scholarship and GA it’s cheap. Excellent value for money
+ Good reputation in finance
+ Has seen significant improvement in rankings recently
+ Excellent placement numbers for international, 98%-100% for the last three years
+ Everyone I spoke with had positive feedback about the careers office. They really try hard for you
- Lowest ranked among all offers in US News rankings
- Remote location
- Long-term brand value?

bb · Answer

Congratulations on your admits and Scholarship! Very well done!

If money is a consideration like it is for most of us, my suggestion would be Smith. That will save you about $100K in tuition vs. Kelley and put you in a better geo location.

I would strike down Tippie since it is a very small program - only 50 people per year and a less desirable location. My guess is most graduates stick around midwest - good place to raise a family but a hard one to fit in when you are an international applicant. By the way, Tippie is rated #21 in Finance by US News (more reliable ranking but still imperfect when it relates to specialization rankings). It is rated higher, however, in terms of job placement 3 months out, which is good but that's is probably a side effect of program size.

FYI - all schools placed about 20% of grads into finance.

I feel Smith will give you a better location to live, search for internship, and potentially pursue your goal of finance than Bloomington or Iowa City. At the same time if you have friends or family that can serve as a support network somewhere close to one of these 3 schools, that's a big plus - that's important so don't rule that out as a network tool and a job searching opportunity.

Keep in mind that even with a full scholarship you will still need $50-70K to live in the US during the 2 years you will be at school... and books cost a fortune. So secure as much money as you can - you will need it.

BrainFog · Answer

Thank you so much for your reply bb. I do not have any support system anywhere in the U.S. My wife will accompany me but that's all the family I'll have in the States. I really wanted to choose Smith, largely because of the location, but the feedback about the school that I have received so far is not positive. Especially the careers office everyone say can improve a lot. In fact I asked them for some details a few days back myself and I'm yet to hear back and I asked more than one person. To give you an idea, the following is the feedback I got from three different students students

1) it is tough for an international student to get a job through "career services". That's because of several reasons, the location, talent pool and inability of business development/career services teams.
2) In general, it is true that placements for international students aren't great at Smith. You are mostly on your own to get an interview.
3) All the things you have heard about location, placement of international students, federal employees on campus, financial service firms not coming /sponsoring are sadly true! Off late, it has become increasingly difficult for international students at Smith to reach out to companies which do sponsor, maybe its because of our small batch size.
 
Furthermore, none of the first years have landed an internship so far. And among second year students only 25% have graduate offers so far, which also include 5% who converted their internship into graduate offers.

On the other hand 9/10 students had positive things to say about Tippie, especially its career office which they say goes an extra mile to place you. Yes it is lower ranked and a small program but placement numbers are really good. If I take investment banking and investment management out of the equation, does it become an attractive option? Finance is my preferable option but I'm not too rigid about it. Everyone I speak with say considering the current H1-B situation, I should be flexible with my career choices.

A part of me also says take a loan and go with the highest ranked option, which is Kelley but even if I get a very decent job I'll be paying back loans for 5 years post-MBA at least and that really scares me. I always wanted to go to a top well recognized school but finances held me back so I didn't even apply. I hope 10-20 years down the line I won't regret that I didn't apply to top schools or had a decent second tier offer but didn't go there.

I noticed you didn't mention Carlson at all. Is it because I don't have scholarship detail yet? Or you would rate it the lowest?

BrainFog · Answer

Carlson came back with only 30% scholarship so that rules it out. Its largely between Kelley and Tippie now.

mbacha · Answer

Hi Brainfog I too was admitted by Kelley/Tippie/Smith with roughly the same scholarship amount as you have and now facing the same dilemma :D

Indeed Smith has a low placement rate especially for international students. Also I would prefer to join a more specialized program and it seems that Smith has always been a general MBA program and only adopts specialization recently.

As an international student, with the uncertainty of H1B visa nowadays, I prefer to keep the debt below 60-70k (the rest hopefully you can settle by borrowing from family with no interest rate).

I'm asking for a quotation from Prodigy as well, just to have an idea what will be the annual interest rate.

bb · Answer

I did not mention Carlson due to the scholarship and it seems that was how it played out with only 30%. As to the loan, you are looking to pay for a while longer than 5 years. Just to set your expectations about a loan, it usually longer for a few reasons: 1. It is a big amount - e.g. your 100K will grow to be around $110-115K by the time you graduate (you borrow each year in separate installments) 2. You have 6 months after graduation usually to start making payments and most don't really start early as they try to build up a safety cushion with their early salary/pay 3. Let's assume you land a $100K job and it goes up to 120K within 3 years or so. That's a lot of money... but not really as you will be paying 25-30% in taxes. That shaves off $25-30K right away. Then even if you have cheap rent, you have to buy new clothes for work, you have to usually buy a car, or fix the old one, and have a bunch of other expenses that have been differed during bschool. 4. Your spending also goes up because mentally you feel you make a ton of money; you go out; eat out, etc. Heaven forbid you get a girlfriend (assuming you are a guy). 5. It also is a fairly low interest rate so the temptation of people is always to put the money into the stock market where returns tend to be higher 6. Usually the first year after graduation, it is a very odd state where you feel like you are finally getting paid a lot of money but the money runs out quick. You are a finance person so you may have a much better handle on the finances than I did but paying the loan off takes time. Anyway, interesting to know about Smith - it is good you are doing your research. The raw numbers from US News I am able to see are looking just fine but statistics has a way of doing that. However, I would caution you about over-positive reviews from Students. We just started a Business School Review section and most of them are super positive and that's because many people won't tell you about problems right away. Only those who are close to you and trust you (or are disgruntled) will spill the beans. Also, Tippie's program size is small and with only 50 graduating students, the career office (1 person probably) can find a few slots among alum network that need the most help. That's something I failed to consider in my analysis, and it is a strength of a program - the smaller you are the easier it is to engage people and folks stay in touch more so. Of the Tippie review, the weakness a reviewer pointed out was: Career Opportunities provided by the school https://gmatclub.com/reviews/business_school/tippie-38 Same is with Smith: https://gmatclub.com/reviews/business_school/smith-72 P.S. International students usually have a harder time with employment due to many companies not hiring/dealing with H1B candidates. That is true regardless of whatever school you have gone. There are ways around it (by working for consulting companies, etc) but it is very true. As an international candidate, you will have one more hoop to jump compared to the US job seekers. Even Tuck people have an issue with it: https://thedartmouth.com/2015/01/16/when ... certainty/ (this talks about undergrad mostly but still, that's Ivy League undergrad). Ultimately the two schools are very similar. If Tippie career services are as good as they claim, then it is worth freezing your tail off in the cornfields of Iowa :-)

I am attaching some stats for both schools

Mo2men · Answer

First of all, congratulation for acceptance. Welcome to the Dilemma :-D

It is really great that you contacted many students in the universities to get information by yourself. In my opinion, the list of schools may be ranked as: Kelley, Carlson, Smith, Tippie. My rational based on general ranking and personal information. BB provided a great example about loan with an example. As international student, I can imagine that the example above could be perfect, if you guarantee H1B visa after OPT period. Before giving up Kelley and Carlson and sacrificing their quality programs, I urge you to negotiate with admission team to have more scholarship. Be patient and take your time when writing the letter. Do not send tragic letter and show your strengths. You can use Smith’s scholarship as leverage to some extent. Please review both articles for reference. If you get any extra scholarship that can mitigate the risks of a loan, then you can go directly with either Kelley or Carlson. https://poetsandquants.com/2014/11/21/wh ... ship-cash/ https://poetsandquants.com/2014/11/21/ho ... holarship/ If you do not get anything so let’s think in Smith and Tippie. I have not visited websites of both schools for a long time. I have reviewed Smith’s report of 2014 (No 2015 yet!!) and the data analysis supports the international students claim. Also, I could not find any information about companies that recruit from Smith!!! On the other hand, I visited Tippie website and info is there. Very small size 57-62, with around 13-22 international students. Career service consists of 4 people. It is important to know that Director is the same Finance Academy Career Coach. It seems they are doing well as 100% international students got job for 2 consecutive years and all students got internships for same years. However, 40% of jobs were facilitated by students. This means a responsibility on the student to network heavily, something you would do anyway but it needs more effort in Tippie. Also, there is a list of recruiting companies. From point of view, I would think in Tippie more than Smith (both are not in my radar ) My Guiding Tips to international students to be prepared for recruitment? You can follow those tips in any phase; applying, matriculation with time to join the program or even after joining MBA program. The early you prepare, the more you add to your profile and become attractable. Professional education •You need to think in workshops/special certificates. In Finance field, you may think in CPA levels. •You take special courses online such Coursera that add value with affordable price and can complement you MBA program. •Do not limit yourself to you field. Suppose you will work in finance department in Amazon. It is powerful to study more in supply chain, if you are sure that your MBA does not offer those courses. •You can be a member of large institutions or professional societies. Connecting to Companies •Visit the recruiter portal in your (or dream) university to know about them clearly. Search about them in LinkedIn and add them. Later, you can create some sort of discussion through emails or Skype. •Pay close attention to your resume in light of the companies you target. You may want show experience that may attract them to you. Clearly, in advanced phases, a good career coach will help you. •Invest your time, if you can, in participating in different projects that can close a gap in your experience or at least read about the topic to be aware of. This will make different in your language during interviews. •Start to familiarize yourself with case interview. Does it mean that you will work in consulting? Clearly no. The new trend in interviews in the USA in any field is to test the interviewee skills. This info was confirmed by two MBA directors when I was visiting schools in person. There are plenty of resources on internet. •During study, participate in city treks and start to build network. Utilizing those tips may vary according to universities and person’s capabilities. In my view, you benefit from tip when program is small or in competition with big MBA programs. I hope it helps.

BrainFog · Answer

Thank you once again for your expert opinion  bb . Would you be able to please post a similar snapshot for Kelley?

BrainFog · Answer

Thank you for your post Mo2men. It certainly helped

I somehow agree with your ranking of these programs. But I believe as international students our concerns are unique and none of the rankings take that into account. For example, if a ranking gives a huge importance to employers survey and 70-80% of those employers don't even sponsor international students, then what good is that ranking to internationals? While finance is my first choice I'm open to a range of career options including strategy, consulting, leadership development, or even supply chain. I'm actually doing an MBA to find out what else is there for me. I ruled out Smith largely because of the reasons I mentioned above. Carlson isn't doing great placing international students either. I spoke with a number of students and they are facing issue. Plus its too cold for me and with little money it was easy to rule it out. I narrowed it down to Kelley vs Tippie me (unless I get better admits in round 2). I know Tippie is lowest ranked I'm not denying that at all. Its just that its offering me good value for money. Generally, positive reviews about both schools. I’m positive if I put in the effort that is required of me I’ll land a job coming out of both schools. I have spoken about Tippie and its employment numbers before. It seems to be moving in the right direction but Tippie has its limitations of course. It’s a small program, ranked lower; the list of employers is small and not many big brands there. Still I’m confident I’ll land a job if I work my ass off. But I'm well aware of the possibility that it might not be a big brand employer. Kelley is comparatively a bigger program. It will introduce me to a bigger and a better pool of employers. The quality of my classmates will also be better at Kelley. The structure of the program is great. There’s this thing Me, Inc. where you self-explore. Look at your strengths and weaknesses and set the course of your career. It has a bigger network and presence across the country. Bottom line Kelley is an amazing program, better recognized, and a bigger alumni network. But all this comes with a $100k loan

Mo2men · Answer

Hi BrainFog,

I agree with you about Kelley and its program and Tippie as well. However, I have a direct experience with international students in Kelley 2 months ago. I met talented people who did not find any sponsor till, despite its reputation. I have same experience with students in UNC. Please review the link below. You will see how the rate of employment on graduation (84%) but raised to 93%. Look to Ross number from 2010-2014. The rate is not that good compared to its ranking. Some students there told in Ross they suffer with career service. My point is that it may be more likely to get sponsored in big schools but nothing guaranteed even there. Maybe you are one of 1-2% who are not hired in those big schools.

https://poetsandquants.com/2014/12/08/be ... schools/2/

I know it is tough decision but I wish you reach a decision soon

Good luck

https://poetsandquants.com/2014/12/08/be ... schools/2/ I know it is tough decision but I wish you reach a decision soon Good luck

bb · Answer

I agree with  Mo2men !
I do know one Ross grad who had gone back home (still was able to make great money) but he did not find a job in IBanking that he thought he deserved. He was a high profile candidate and had a strong network at home that landed him a solid job where taxes were much less than in the US and cost living was much lower too, so he technically ended up in the plus financially but I know it was not the outcome he was hoping for.

A good brand name is good to get your name noticed but you have to go through another 2-3 rounds of interviews, reviews, and comparisons. Often people with prior experience in the US and with a work permit will be given a priority over you (e.g. your Kelley classmate who has spent 5 years in Nestle working in Corporate finance and is now interviewing in P&G - it is going to be hard for you to beat him on paper if you did Marketing for an Insurance company and now trying to get into corporate finance. You may do so in an in-person interview but it may not get to it).

Ultimately, it is all about setting realistic expectations and knowing that you will have to fight in both schools (including Smith... I doubt Smith my original recommendation is much worse than Tippie). My last resort/recommendation would be to go and try visit the schools in person for the admit weekend (not sure if that is even a remotely possible opportunity but something that would be very helpful).

BrainFog · Answer

Update: Received an offer from Mendoza with $70k fellowship

bb · Answer

I think this strongly weighs you towards Mendoza if they are offering that size scholarship. 
Their employment numbers are surprisingly on par with other programs but the money is definitely worth it a bit of ranking trade off (virtually nothing frankly, and if you add the Notre Dame name on top of it, and Fighting Irish, you are probably in the plus!

BrainFog · Answer

Sorry for a late post but I wanted to update that I'll be enrolling at Mendoza. A big thank you to both  bb  and  Mo2men  for all your help and guidance.

Go Irish!

gmatdreamer12 · Answer

Awesome choice and welcome to the group!

VeritasPrepDozie · Answer

I would go with Mendoza here, better brand and the strong alumni network should help you hustle if need be on the job front. With the money I think I would certainly lean towards ND!

Mo2men · Answer

Congratulations for your decision :-D

I wish you success in your MBA journey

sczyjr · Answer

Congratulations to you both!

gmatdreamer12,

I sent you a private message a while back. Did you happen to see it?

Thanks a lot,

bb · Answer

Congratulations! Thank your for letting us all know - good to have an ending to a story and closure!

Sent from my iPhone using  GMAT Club Forum App

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