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R.E.D.
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Wow... 13 Oct 2007, 06:37
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riverripper
Oh I wasn't referring to just the GMAT. Someone who has an amazing background but a 650 gmat stands a better chance than someone who has a 750 and there is nothing special about them.

They may deny there is a method to how they choose their classes but I wouldnt be suprised if there was. There was an article on BW today about an admissions consultant for UG (charges up to 40K) and I guess a lot of schools dislike her because she gave up a lot of their secrets (she was assistant dean of admissions at Dartmouth). All these top schools had formulas they run people through. I wouldnt be suprised if they have something like that at certain business schools. You get point values for everything from GMAT, GPA (weighed by ug degree and school), your work experience, recs, extras, and of course essays. If you dont meet a certain number you are dinged. If you exceed a certain number you are accepted. In between those two values you get a more thorough review and are reevaluated for a ding/WL/accept.
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That's the main idea and why Stanford Adcom underscores it - the too high GMAT score shows only that a person can study hard, but if he is an ideal scorer, who could be this person in live? We see that all the schools look for the maturity and self-awareness, so could the 800 score be just a result of trying to seem too ideal and having no life outside the books? I think that irony in the original message was due to the fact that GMAT is only one aspect and you have never overestimate it. You have to stand out of the applicants but too much of a good thing is not a best thing :)

With the formulas - hope it's not so... while it's too in US-management style, the formula-based approach can't show you the whole picture of the world or the person, you have to observe, learn and find the unique way in every management situation. Rather, I see a wave of management thinkers who pull away from the figures-only approach, namely Izhak Adizes and Henry Mintzberg - they both argue that the future leaders should learn from their own experience and in their programs they make stress on experiental learning. That's why all the adcoms push us to make best out of our essays and why they interview us. Wanted to add that there could exist a formula... but every situation/applicant is unique - hmmm, until he has no strong areas... that is what the program could estimate - if you had 2.2 GPA, 500 GMAT and you don't have a story that you have an allergy on standardized tests and never pass them well while in real life you cope with analytical tasks fine, nothing helps... The 620-640 score is not something incredible, it's an achievable score, if you want to take a rigorous top academical program. Still, you see that I involved reading of at least optional essay :)
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It all seems very subjective, and there is not a formula you can follow. 800 GMAT is just a score that tells the adcoms you are "probably" the material they are looking for. Probably.

From what I have understood from my interactions with different adcoms, they look at your numbers first, then look at the main part of the application (essays, recos, CV), and then if they like both you're in. If they dislike both, you will hear a ding.

If they like the latter, but somewhat dislike the former, they may ask you to retake GMAT and improve the score to dissipate their doubts about your computational skills.

Obiously, adcoms cannot ask someone with an 800 GMAT score improve it further. So it means that those dinged with the perfect GMAT scores fail to provide a strong application overall.

It seems that scores of 710 and over mean pretty much the same. Also, it could be assumed that for each school, GMAT scores from their mean 80% range have very similar weight in the application process.
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R.E.D.

too high GMAT score shows only that a person can study hard
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I disagree. A high GMAT score more often means that you have a decent mathematical and verbal background. An engineer may not have to study to score high in quant. A lawyer may not have to study hard to score high in CR.
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mNeo
R.E.D.

too high GMAT score shows only that a person can study hard

I disagree. A high GMAT score more often means that you have a decent mathematical and verbal background. An engineer may not have to study to score high in quant. A lawyer may not have to study hard to score high in CR.
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I am neither an engineer nor a lawyer. Should n't adcoms look at my gmat favorably ? :P
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Wow... Updated on: 13 Oct 2007, 18:13
Originally posted by hbs.aspirant on 13 Oct 2007, 17:55.
Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 13 Oct 2007, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
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mNeo
R.E.D.

too high GMAT score shows only that a person can study hard

I disagree. A high GMAT score more often means that you have a decent mathematical and verbal background. An engineer may not have to study to score high in quant. A lawyer may not have to study hard to score high in CR.
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If there is a way, I would like to find out the percent of engineers getting Q51.

According to scores posted on GMATCLUB forums and everywhere else on the internet, I have seen way too many engineers getting 48-50(that's a great score, btw), on a exam that tests high school math skills or even lower. I am inclined to think that quant tests many qualities of a person. Mathmematical background does help since you have the information needed that is required. But then during the exam the job is to apply the accurate information to the scenario.

I think that quant part tests one's speed and accuracy with which one recalls the information (formulae, rules) and applies the accurate piece of information to a given scenario, that too under pressure and with efficient time management(keeping track of time and not spending too much on one question) and decision making (when to give up and move to next question).
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Wow... Updated on: 13 Oct 2007, 18:32
Originally posted by mNeo on 13 Oct 2007, 18:02.
Last edited by mNeo on 13 Oct 2007, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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EDIT: Nevermind. I misunderstood hbs.aspirant.
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im not sure if i am considered an engineer or not, but i did get a q51

i think the engineering background will get you to 47 easily. i think getting 51 is about knowing the tricks and being a good puzzle solver.
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Wow... Updated on: 13 Oct 2007, 18:25
Originally posted by hbs.aspirant on 13 Oct 2007, 18:15.
Last edited by hbs.aspirant on 13 Oct 2007, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.
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dabots
getting 51 is about knowing the tricks and being a good puzzle solver.
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Exactly, I saw decent puzzles in my exam, where math was very basic.
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mNeo
So you are saying that a 50 (For example) is not good enough for an engineer? I guess I didn't get you. Considering the time limit, the length of the test, silly mistakes and the fact that some questions intentionally try to trick you, I would say that a 50 or 49 is a pretty good score even for an engineer .. even if the mathematics is of high-school level.
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Changed my original post mNeo. I guess that answers. BTW, I am also saying 50 is a pretty good.....actually damn good score for anyone.
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R.E.D.
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riverripper
Well that 40K consultant isn't a normal consultant...she is more of a life coach. She starts on the kids in sophomore year and molds them into schools dream students. The are extremely well rounded and academically successful, because they have every opportunity. The kids do have an unfair advantage but they still must work their tails off.
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And imagine the kid after this type of consultant... I have an opinion that we are responsible for our life and we ourselves do our choices. We can have mentors, who influence our development, but not the people who dictate how should we live our life just only to get into the top school. And, as far as all top schools are looking for the leaders, for the people who can lead others, it can happen, that a kid won't be able to do that, he was supported for 4-5 years by a life consultant. I think, it's more of the parents' stuff and their willingness to provide better life for their children. But who knows what is better for the kid except himself?
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I hadn't noticed this thread till now, but I have a few comments based on observations from the last year+.

For admissions purposes, there is a difference between a low 700s score and a high 700s score. It varies by school of course, but I'd say once you get to about 750 or so, there are negligible benefits to having a higher GMAT score (for admissions). Higher is better, but you'd really have to be right on the borderline to notice a difference between 750 and something higher. I'd guess there are a handful of students per school per year who fall on this border. I do think it's absolutely false that all scores above 700 are equal (as someone suggested). Scores around 700 are average for most of the top schools and will more or less be a neutral application factor; a higher score could be a positive application factor.

For purposes of scholarships, I think the GMAT is a huge factor. I only have data for Darden (and not a complete set of data), but merit scholarship winners definitely have way above average GMAT scores. 750+ seems to be the sweet spot. If I recall correctly, all winners of the scholarship that I got had 760+ GMAT scores. Once they have made their admissions decisions, I think schools are clearly willing to shell out a few dollars to bring in some high scores. Of course, Harvard doesn't offer merit scholarships, but pretty much every other school will drop some coin for high scores.

For purposes of finding a job, well, my observations are incomplete at this point because I'm still in the middle of recruiting. There are a few things that are pretty clear though. At most top schools, about 1/3 of the class goes into consulting, 1/3 go into banking and 1/3 go into other stuff (general management, marketing and entrepreneurship largely make up this final 1/3). As others have discussed, consulting firms and investment banks will absolutely want to know your GMAT score.

Recruiters have just started to whittle down their lists here, and I have no doubt that GMAT score will be a pretty persuasive factor when they establish their closed interview lists. A 750+ GMAT doesn't mean you'll get on the closed interview list for a firm, but in my limited experience, it seems like it's a huge head start. The interview invite is pretty much yours to lose - just don't make an ass of yourself at recruiting events. I guess it's kind of like admissions in that way. The opposite is also true, of course. If you have a GMAT below 700, you will be fighting an uphill battle to get onto closed interview lists (I'm talking about banking, and I think consulting is the same). You're going to have to be a superstar schmoozer to overcome a sub 700 GMAT score for top IB and MC firms. At most schools, you might be able to bid for an interview even if you don't make the closed list, but I've been told by numerous banks that they don't seriously consider making offers to people that bid their way into interviews.

I understand that general management, marketing and other recruiters pay little attention to GMAT scores and grades, and interview mostly for fit. The recruiting dynamic seems to be very different for these types of positions; I get the sense that these companies are satisfied to know that you are at one of their target schools - you don't need to prove any more. IB & MC jobs are different though; competition for these jobs is higher (probably because they pay more) and you need to separate yourself from the crowd to succeed.
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pelihu
A 750+ GMAT doesn't mean you'll get on the closed interview list for a firm, but in my limited experience, it seems like it's a huge head start.
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... which means that even those who get in with a low GMAT should consider getting a higher score once admitted.
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R.E.D.
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pelihu
A 750+ GMAT doesn't mean you'll get on the closed interview list for a firm, but in my limited experience, it seems like it's a huge head start.

... which means that even those who get in with a low GMAT should consider getting a higher score once admitted.
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I thought about it... the alternatives to devote time after admission (if any):
- retake GMAT for 730-740
- take HSK - test in Chinese that allows to get a work permit in China
- learn Spanish - just because I like it...
all three options are good enough for further career development and the latter two can balance the 700 score.
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R.E.D.

- take HSK - test in Chinese that allows to get a work permit in China
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HSK has nothing to do with getting a work permit in China. It is an academic test that you would need to get into a nice Chinese undergrad school (Beijing U, or Tsinghua). South Korean employers often ask Korean job seekers fresh out of college for a good HSK (9 or better), so it is a very Korean test now in terms of the audience it targets.

Also, as with Beijing U, a good score (10 or 11) on the HSK would help you get a scholarship from the Chinese government.

You can easily get a work permit if you sign a contract with a Chinese company. In fact, you can get a work visa/permit in Beijing or Shanghai through many visa companies that would charge you about RMB5000 for the service.

Foreign specialists do not have to pay as high a tax as locals, so Chinese companies who have the license to employ foreigners use it to evade taxes by giving out a maximum number of visas their license entitles them to, then "paying" these foreigners.

I know quite a few "engineers", "software designers", and "Marketing Directors" who have never even seen the boss of the company they are officially employed by here in China.
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xerox
R.E.D.

- take HSK - test in Chinese that allows to get a work permit in China

HSK has nothing to do with getting a work permit in China. It is an academic test that you would need to get into a nice Chinese undergrad school (Beijing U, or Tsinghua). South Korean employers often ask Korean job seekers fresh out of college for a good HSK (9 or better), so it is a very Korean test now in terms of the audience it targets.

Also, as with Beijing U, a good score (10 or 11) on the HSK would help you get a scholarship from the Chinese government.

You can easily get a work permit if you sign a contract with a Chinese company. In fact, you can get a work visa/permit in Beijing or Shanghai through many visa companies that would charge you about RMB5000 for the service.

Foreign specialists do not have to pay as high a tax as locals, so Chinese companies who have the license to employ foreigners use it to evade taxes by giving out a maximum number of visas their license entitles them to, then "paying" these foreigners.

I know quite a few "engineers", "software designers", and "Marketing Directors" who have never even seen the boss of the company they are officially employed by here in China.
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Thanks for the valuable input! I'm left with two choices only - GMAT and Spanish. Woohoo, tengo que hablar Espanol :) And why Korean companies use HSK? Do they manufacture a lot in China?
The environment is very similar in most of the developing countries. Russian companies also seek ways to pay less taxes and it's a kind of national competition - who will be more efficient in it... The thing that really suprised me is that Rupert Merdock's empire heavily uses off-shore companies to pay less into US budget.
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R.E.D.
And why Korean companies use HSK? Do they manufacture a lot in China?
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Lots of Koreans are now fleeing Korea to establish a presence in China. All the major corporations are now here in China, lots of smaller important companies are either here, or are coming, or have business partners/suppliers in China. The two economies are getting more and more integrated into one another, so speaking Mandarin is a big positive factor if you are a Korean job seeker.
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