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Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 15:49
VictoryMBA wrote:
About 2-3 current Yale SOM students that I have spoken to about this subject have all said that they don't believe that Yale is going to jeopardize its core philosophy/culture to rise in the rankings (they were 100% adamant about this). So while we do see a rise in avg GMAT score, I wouldn't count on the class to be filled with 750+ cutthroat engineers/IT guys lacking any social skills anytime soon. Point being, if you can demonstrate how you fit the Yale mold (this is still incredibly important with this school), and have demonstrated a good quant foundation, you're probably going to be ok. This is what I keep telling myself at least :lol:


This is straight from the Dean, however, I feel it will naturally go up in rankings when you look everything they are doing.
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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 16:14
Yale has been trying to get into the top 10 for 20 years. I don't think there's any real evidence to make me believe that they can accomplish now what they haven't been able to accomplish in the past. The Yale name was as golden 20 years ago as it is today, and truth be told Yale has traditionally been on the fringe when talking about elite programs (to say nothing of ultra-elite). I agree that Yale has wherewithal to make a push up in the rankings, but it's not like they recently got a big pile of cash and a gilded brand name; they've had those things for decades and they haven't really made any move in the rankings.

Regarding the jump in average GMAT score, I do see that as a clear effort to move up, and it is impressive. However, didn't they reduce their class size by 1/3 last year (from 250 to 170 or something)? I seem to recall reading about this last year, and such a reduction could easily lead to a substantial gain in average GMAT scores. The opposite is true as well; fairly recent evidence from Fuqua and Darden shows that a 20% increase in class size can negatively impact average GMAT scores by 30-40 pionts in the short term. I agree that Yale must increase it's class size to at least 250 or 300 to merit a serious move up in the rankings, but it would be fair to assume that their admissions standards will have to drop (pretty substantially) to achieve that goal.

Tough place to crack right now though, with its small class size.

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 16:35
lanter1 wrote:
jallenmorris wrote:
I predict within 5 years Yale will be an M7 school.


100% agree, especially after the new building.


Out of curiosity, which M7 school do each of you think Yale will be able to knock out of the M7?

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 17:01
Honestly I don't see it moving up too much. The problem isnt the quality of the school its the other schools above it and its now even smaller size. There just is no way it will move into the top 5 (M7?). The best Yale could hope for without expanding is to be viewed like Tuck...a great school whose size is all that keeps it from moving up.

Its not that Yale isnt impoving, its that for Yale to move up others have to move down. And its not like any of the top schools just sit there and go along without improving themselves, letting other schools jump them. To expand size to compete with the large schools they will take a hit like Duke did several years ago when they added students. While Yale is a great school they dont really compete with the M7 for students...its a safe bet the vast majority of people admitted to an M7 and Yale are going to the M7. Scholarships might sway some but more than not a lot of people still would go for the ultra elite school.
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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 17:06
riverripper wrote:
Honestly I don't see it moving up too much. The problem isnt the quality of the school its the other schools above it and its now even smaller size. There just is no way it will move into the top 5 (M7?). The best Yale could hope for without expanding is to be viewed like Tuck...a great school whose size is all that keeps it from moving up.

Its not that Yale isnt impoving, its that for Yale to move up others have to move down. And its not like any of the top schools just sit there and go along without improving themselves, letting other schools jump them. To expand size to compete with the large schools they will take a hit like Duke did several years ago when they added students. While Yale is a great school they dont really compete with the M7 for students...its a safe bet the vast majority of people admitted to an M7 and Yale are going to the M7. Scholarships might sway some but more than not a lot of people still would go for the ultra elite school.


I completely agree. That's why I'm curious which schools people think Yale could replace (even though I don't necessarily agree).

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 17:10
It would turn into the M8

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 17:25
terp26 wrote:
It would turn into the M8


Not going to happen sorry to say. At least for a long long time...well beyond the point of any of us being even remotely recent grads. It would have to jump Tuck, Haas, and NYU...let alone Ross, Darden, and Duke (its peers).

Well it could join the M7 since that is just an unofficial group made up by those schools. However, I dont see it joining the ultra elite group. Seriously look at the size of those programs. Its half the size of MIT and Stanford which are the smallest ultra elites and have about as many students a year as Yale has in their entire program. Tuck is even bigger than Yale and everyone knocks it for being this tiny school. There is nothing bad about being small but when it will definitely hold it back from breaking into the ultra elites...and expanding would require them to take weaker students and it would take years to get back to where they are now and even then they may not.
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New post 28 Jul 2008, 18:26
I'm definitely curious to which school you guys think that Yale is going to knock out of the top 10, let alone the M7. And I don't really think a new building alone will let it get into the top 10.

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 18:42
You're right, and a building alone will not get it into the top 10, but increasing their class size back up to 250 - 300, the new building, and keeping their average GMAT score high will certainly go a long ways towards that end.
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New post 28 Jul 2008, 18:50
Yale has never done well in the BW rankings. They are currently ranked 19th, exactly no change from 20 years ago. Here's their historical standings:

1988: 19
1990: unranked (I believe this means they weren't in the top 30)
1992: unranked
1994: unranked
1996: 22
1998: 20
2000: 19
2002: 14
2004: 22
2006: 19
2008: 19

Other than one ranking, 19th has been their high water mark in BW. Certainly, there are different rankings out there but generally schools have to show well in both US News and BW to maintain ranking credibility. As mentioned above, Yale has been on the fringes of the elites for more than 20 years; perhaps they have solidified their spot among the elite schools (though there's definitely an argument against this), but nothing has really changed to make me think they will join the top 10, let alone the top 5, in short order.

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 18:54
I would like to see them gain in ranking, but even if they don't, I'm not interested in them because of their rank. I like what I read on their website and definitely want to get a better perspective (i.e., something that isn't mean to make them look perfect, but a realistic evaluation).
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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 19:55
jallenmorris wrote:
You're right, and a building alone will not get it into the top 10, but increasing their class size back up to 250 - 300, the new building, and keeping their average GMAT score high will certainly go a long ways towards that end.


Yes but realize that that a bunch of other top schools are in the process of building new buildings, planning new buildings, or have new buildings. Ross's is almost done, Kellogg is working on plans for theirs...a building wont help rankings much. As much as people rave about GSB's building, no one in their right mind applies or chooses the school because of that.

They just reduced class size, I am not sure what their long term plans are for class size but a class of 250 or 300 puts it in the neighborhood of Tuck and Haas in size but to increase the size of their class that much they are going to either have to do it very slowly or admit people that normally wouldnt make the cut.

GMAT scores play a very small role in rankings, and remember that Yale's is going up but so are every other schools'.

Rankings are rather steady for most schools...it takes a lot to move up or down more than a few places. This is why people here advocate the tier system. Schools might move up or down but they dont really move in or out of a tier. At best they can hope to move to the upper subtier.
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New post 28 Jul 2008, 20:47
It is definitely the total package that will cause the increase and not one or the other. I think it has the potential to be a top 5 but the rankings may or may not prove this point. The school's MBA facilities are well below most schools I have encountered. The new facility, plus increase in class size, plus better faculty will only naturally raise the ranking.
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New post 28 Jul 2008, 20:56
this is also a relatively "new" program since it was a masters in management for many years and not an MBA.

I am very bias so my opinion should probably not count so i will try to provide only what i know from here on, but i think the acceptance rate was less than 10%. Do you think they would have to lower standards with such a low acceptance rate.
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New post 28 Jul 2008, 21:02
lanter - something else that i just thought of (and I am one that thinks/hopes Yale will rise to M7 status even though it's not the basis of my interest in Yale).

If they are accepting 10%, what is their yield? I've heard some say that Yale is currently used as the safety schools for those with true target schools of H/W/S or that level of school, which might affect Yale's yield. I think if Yale gradually increases their class size up to 250-300, that would make a difference. It would at least then be the same size as the smaller UE. It takes time for a program to get good recognition.

As for the posts that show Yale on BW ranked in the high teens (19-ish) over the last 20 years, is that when Yale's program was a Master's Degree or a MBA program? It would have been difficult to compare their rank when Yale was an MBA program vs now. And if it's been just recently (I'm not sure the exact year Yale started offering the MBA) it will take some time for the changes to be reflected in the ranking.

Also, Yale will have to do something much better than the schools currently on the list in the spots we're talking about Yale moving into. All things being equal, I doubt the rankings would change to let a relatively newcomer in that spot. For example, if MIT and Yale each scored an 84 on US News, I dont' think the rankings are going to have Yale over MIT. Furthermore, the history of the program is taken into account through network size etc.
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New post 28 Jul 2008, 21:07
Other current rankings

Forbes-8

US News-13

Financial Times-16 worldwide; 9 in USA

Economist-25 worldwide; 13 in USA


Average rank with businessweek included is 12.4...not far from top 10 without the additions we have discussed. Surely we don't only look at businessweek.
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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 28 Jul 2008, 21:13
lanter1 wrote:
It is definitely the total package that will cause the increase and not one or the other. I think it has the potential to be a top 5 but the rankings may or may not prove this point. The school's MBA facilities are well below most schools I have encountered. The new facility, plus increase in class size, plus better faculty will only naturally raise the ranking.


It's natural as long as it improves the school competitive position vs. its peers. Every school has to build up its value continuously simply to sustain its existing ranking.

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 29 Jul 2008, 07:16
5 years down the line i think this would be the rankings

H/S/W
Kellogg/MIT/Chicago
Columbia/Tuck/Berkeley/Yale

NYU/etc...

dunno. just a feeling...

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New post 29 Jul 2008, 07:57
fooFighter wrote:
5 years down the line i think this would be the rankings

H/S/W
Kellogg/MIT/Chicago
Columbia/Tuck/Berkeley/Yale

NYU/etc...

dunno. just a feeling...

I agree, except I think Yale will outrun both, Tuck and Haas. Yale University might be pressuring the SOM to ensure its rep is up to par with the rest of the school. Whereas with Haas and Tuck, even though their representative schools are very good, their business schools themselves uplift the universities (for example, Kellogg uplifts Northwestern), but the opposite is true for Yale and its SOM.

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up [#permalink]

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New post 29 Jul 2008, 08:50
sarzan wrote:
fooFighter wrote:
5 years down the line i think this would be the rankings

H/S/W
Kellogg/MIT/Chicago
Columbia/Tuck/Berkeley/Yale

NYU/etc...

dunno. just a feeling...

I agree, except I think Yale will outrun both, Tuck and Haas. Yale University might be pressuring the SOM to ensure its rep is up to par with the rest of the school. Whereas with Haas and Tuck, even though their representative schools are very good, their business schools themselves uplift the universities (for example, Kellogg uplifts Northwestern), but the opposite is true for Yale and its SOM.


Very very difficult. Just as you have pointed that some B-schools' reputation rise well beyond their Universities and similarly the opposite is also true.

Let us check the recent history. Although in student gatherings the Dean says that Yale does not play the ranking game, but going by last few years, it has already played almost all the tricks for climbing the ranking ladder.

It has kept itself mega-selective, cut down the class size suddenly and now this enermous increase in GMAT ( of course, it includes the top faculty recruiting, but that will add more value to the PhD students, and remember the faculty at other top schools are not mediocre either)! Now what else it will play? Building? everyone is having a new one.

Every top school, it seems has a definite focus and charachter. Yale has its non-profit one. But while visiting the school I found whatever the focus be, people are dying to get into banking ( their employment report also supports this). There are people from Non-profit , but the people I met, all wanted to switch to banking. As if, it is just an empolyment exchange! I know, people write those save-the-world stories in essays, but their action tells separate things. If people were really serious abt non-prof to begin with then MPP/MPA would have been the right choice.

So, what is Yale about , Non-prof or finance? If finance, will it be able to replace NYU ( please have a look at their faculty, currently perhaps best in the world,they have poached almost all biggest names , but still not a top school), Columbia? If non-prof then why most of people use the place to end up in finance?

Moreover, consulting recruiting is not very exciting at Yale.they need to fix all these up!

Then they will have to replace Darden, Duke, Ross, NYU,Haas, Tuck to be top 8, or at least one M7 to be at top 7! Top 5, tell me who are the other two going to be replaced ?

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Re: Yale SOM's average GMAT goes WAY up   [#permalink] 29 Jul 2008, 08:50

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