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11 Nov 2010, 19:12
Maybe traditionally higher ranked schools have a higher ratio of over achievers who set higher expectations and who ended up being harsher in rating their school? Who knows?!
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11 Nov 2010, 20:58
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lagomez wrote:
staind wrote:
Rankings don't tell you anything if you don't understand the methodology behind those rankings. BW assigns 45% weightage to student perception of their program and 45% to recruiter perception of programs they have actively recruited from. So all this ranking really shows is how happy students are with the program they are attending and how happy recruiters are with the schools they recruit from. If recruiter A rates Cox 10/10 in comparison to her experience at Mendoza and recruiter B rates NYU 7/10 in comparison to his experience at Harvard, does that really tell you anything about the difference between the four schools? Not really. If students at Fuqua rate their program as 8.5/10 and students at MIT rate their program as 8/10 does this tell you that Fuqua is better than MIT? Not really, because the students are not comparing the two schools they're just assigning a rating to their own school. All the BW ranking shows is how happy students are with their OWN program and how happy recruiters are with a school in comparison to other schools THEY HAVE RECRUITED from. The BW ranking system would be more useful if applied to schools that are already grouped by tier based on more scientific ranking methodology i.e comparing just Tier 1 schools among each other, etc.

why do they survey schools' own students?? Schools can potentially tell the students that giving 10/10 will be beneficial to them since they will get a higher ranking. Ergo, the lower-ranked the school is, the more incentive it has to push its students to give 10/10, and more likely schools like SMU can end up in top 15. I just don't understand why BW does not even modify or correct its methodologies when the end result doesn't even pass the laugh test. Way to establish credibility for BW. Btw, who really reads bw for actual news and analysis?

By the same token, the "better" schools should be giving themselves 10/10 as well so they don't lose out to the lower-ranked schools. Adding to your point, everyone would be getting 10/10's and this stat would be irrelevant. However, this is not the case. The "better" schools are not getting 10/10 for some reason.

since a school is already lower-ranked, they gain more by pushing their students to give 10/10. Whereas, a higher-ranked school like NYU has already established its reputation elsewhere, so it may not care about the survey at all.
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11 Nov 2010, 21:27
LGB nails the point!
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11 Nov 2010, 21:41
Funny, I was at tepper for an info session earlier today and the adcom said the " the business week rankings come out in (looks at watch) eight minutes"
I think most schools do in fact care where they fit in much, we obviously know better but some people will look at schools based off of this very ranking.

For those that have to reach towards the bottom 30 to 40 of any ranking these lists get the ball rolling, people will begin to look at a school like SMU more seriously, hopefully their due diligence steers them elsewhere.

Haha the SMU hate is strong in this thread!!
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12 Nov 2010, 03:13
I'd conjecture to say that most schools care about the rankings. That's usually where most students considering B-School, at whatever stage, begin their search. Obviously there are a few ubiquitous names that everyone thinks about, but doesn't mean that that will always be the case.
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12 Nov 2010, 07:11
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I'm sure you're right. All schools care about the rankings (except maybe schools that serve very different purposes), but they may not care enough to try and get people to put down different ratings on their surveys.

Also, I think there's something to be said about expectations. If you go to NYU or Tuck, your rating is going to be relative to what you expect a very top school to be and what it can get you. If you go to SMU, your rating is going to be relative to what a solid regional school is going to get you.

For example, Wharton gets a C for teaching based off of the student surveys, which according to their scale is the bottom 20 percent. I'd be willing to believe that Wharton's profs are focused on other things than teaching, but I'm not sure I'll buy that it's in the bottom 20% for teaching. Columbia gets a C as well for teaching. Duke gets a B for career services. Again, I think there may be some disappointment with their career services, but I doubt it's in the bottom 55% of all schools. It's all relative to expectations.
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12 Nov 2010, 08:50
Can anyone setup a table in this post so we view BW rankings fluctuations from the past 3 years?
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12 Nov 2010, 10:19
Perfectly said LGB. Damned if you do (voice your dissatisfactions and bring down ranking of own school). Damned if you don't (extol only school's virtues to inflate own school's rankings, but lose out on improving own school).
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12 Nov 2010, 10:34
from poetsandquant.com:
Quote:
BusinessWeek said its response rate for the 2010 MBA survey was 55%, with 9,827 of 17,941 graduates responding, while its response rate on the corporate recruiter survey was 42%, with 215 of 514 companies responding. One trick that BusinessWeek applies to its methodology is to count the 2010 graduate survey for just half of the MBA customer satisfaction weight. It also tosses in the previous two surveys to MBA grads from 2008 and 2006, weighted equally at 25% each, which tends to prevent wild swings in the rankings.

I find that they weigh current rankings using 25% each to 2006 and 2008 numbers so arbitrary. Obviously they're doing this to keep the ranking volatility low, but can't they think up of something more logical (e.g., add other factors to the methodology that is more relavant to the current year?) than using some naive allocation/weighting scheme approach?
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12 Nov 2010, 11:37
Interesting counterargument found in the comments of Poet & Quants:
Quote:
Let’s look a the ranking from another, relevant perspective: a financial one.

Students are paying more than ever for a graduate business degree. Yet, to use the schools you reference, at SMU (Cox), they’re paying $17,000 LESS than they would by attending Dartmouth’s Tuck. Sure, these grads are earning less on the back end, but those with jobs do enjoy a similar salary jump as their counterparts at Tuck: SMU pre-mba salary average:$50,000… post MBA $81,000 (up 62%) Tuck pre-mba salary average:$64,400… post MBA $105,000 (63% rise) While the recruiters may pay less for a graduate of SMU, they obviously find value in Texas — solid MBAs who don’t request as hefty a paycheck as their counterparts at other schools. Perhaps these recruiters are shopping where they can get the most bang for their buck… and that’s an important thing to show any boss in this economy! Finally, let’s follow the argument that any MBA student should be in a program for the education they’ll receive and the experience they’ll have, rather than a hoped-for job at the other end. In that sense, satisfaction over two years is terribly important. It will have a lot to do with student services, quality of teaching, access to faculty, course materials… Remember that at larger schools, some of the prized faculty never step foot in an MBA class — indeed, some don’t want to! — preferring to work instead with seasoned executives, or perhaps on their next book. In those cases, it might be the rising stars (not always polished faculty) in front of the MBAs… that will impact your day-to-day experience… and if you’re paying more than$100,000 a year for the opportunity to study somewhere, you’re going to want it to be good from start to finish!
In short, don’t underestimate the value of what these graduates have to say: they may be earning varied salaries, but they are all choosing from a relatively similar menu of MBA courses at their respective schools. Anyone who is after a solid MBA degree first, and a job second (no matter how long it may take to find it), may want to tune in before they sign any loan agreements!

All the best,
Mica
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12 Nov 2010, 14:37
While I agree that the BW Rankings, with no context, appear, well, insane, I do think they have a value when you understand the methodology. Since the rankings are not divided up into "tiers" by either salary or GMAT or some other general categories, they are forced to rank programs against each other that do not have a lot in common. Maybe it would make sense to break them up first.

Who runs a better business... McDonalds or the local deli down the street? Well, I don't know if I can answer that question. I guess I could look at the balance sheet, but that only tells me so much. I could ask the employees how happy they are, but that is clearly flawed. BW appears to value the opinion of the students and recruiters more than anything else, which are clearly relative to their expectations going in.

I've gone to four colleges... some of them well-known... and my best experience was at a local community college, based off the professors, value, and convenience. Would I say that the community college should be ranked higher than the more well-known college? Kind of, yes. What I'm trying to say is that it seems to make more sense to me to disagree with the methodology than to disagree with the actual rankings... they are what they are.

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12 Nov 2010, 15:20
People,

One time I read a British car survey in which the owners rated their own cars. Result ? The 5 higher ranked were cheap japanese cars, whereas BMW, Mercedes and Porsche were all at 20th-30th positions.

The same applies to BW rankings: the students (and recruiters) had EXPECTATIONS before and compared to the RESULTS after. One grad from Harvard would get frustated if he do not get a $250k private equity job, whereas a Cox grad would be super happy to get a$95k salary...

Based on its criteria, I believe that BW rankings indeed has its value.
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12 Nov 2010, 15:57
uprightcitizen wrote:
While I agree that the BW Rankings, with no context, appear, well, insane, I do think they have a value when you understand the methodology. Since the rankings are not divided up into "tiers" by either salary or GMAT or some other general categories, they are forced to rank programs against each other that do not have a lot in common. Maybe it would make sense to break them up first.

Who runs a better business... McDonalds or the local deli down the street? Well, I don't know if I can answer that question. I guess I could look at the balance sheet, but that only tells me so much. I could ask the employees how happy they are, but that is clearly flawed. BW appears to value the opinion of the students and recruiters more than anything else, which are clearly relative to their expectations going in.

I've gone to four colleges... some of them well-known... and my best experience was at a local community college, based off the professors, value, and convenience. Would I say that the community college should be ranked higher than the more well-known college? Kind of, yes. What I'm trying to say is that it seems to make more sense to me to disagree with the methodology than to disagree with the actual rankings... they are what they are.

I don't know a thing about CMU, but I do know calling it a "third tier toilet" reeks of arrogance and ignorance.

He was actually talking about SMU, but it's the same thing.
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12 Nov 2010, 15:59
Jeanette wrote:
He was actually talking about SMU, but it's the same thing. That kind of arrogance is shockingly common among the law community; it was one of the things that made me rethink going to law school back in the day. (Along with meaningless cutoffs. Top 5 Ivy? Pointless cutoff with ambiguous meaning, though I feel fairly confident he's a Penn or Columbia alumnus)

Thanks, typo. I have a very close (and humble) friend who just started law school, so I'm trying not to stereotype... but you're probably right.
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12 Nov 2010, 16:17
Isn't it ironic that somebody called SMU Cocks a third tier (probably men's) toilet? I personally think that SMU Cocks rule. Moreover it is located in the beautiful state of TX. DON'T MESS WITH SMU COCKS.
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12 Nov 2010, 17:17
As a Yale guy I cant say I like the rankings but this crowd needs to back off the SMU hate. Its funny watching people freak out when thier school isnt as high as they want and then rip the rankings. No Cox is not a better B school than Tuck or NYU but something needs to be said for having such a high recruiter rating. They are doing something right and it's probably not a bad option for someone looking to work in the Southwest or in energy. Toilet bowl I think not.
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12 Nov 2010, 20:59
I agree with previous posters.

It is okay disagreeing with BW's ranking, but let's do it with some manner and civility like grown-ups - I think we are literally old enough to be categorized as grown-ups, rt?

Calling a school "toilet" cannot be justified at all. The disagreement should be toward BW's ranking methodology, not the school itself. Be logical. Be civil. Be humble - you will go to business school soon and theoretically lead people after graduation. No one likes arrogance.
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13 Nov 2010, 00:04
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Lets move on past bashing SMU and keep this thread clean of profanity from now on.
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13 Nov 2010, 01:04
jordanhendrix wrote:
Lets move on past bashing SMU and keep this thread clean of profanity from now on.

Thanks Jordan for your interference! I am a current SMU's Cox School of Business student and it was painful reading all the inane chatter going on here. It is a good school and has a great reputation in Texas. It's curriculum is HARD but students are very friendly and ambitious. Students enjoy their time here although it get can painful sometimes - you know with the heat in Dallas.

As for the BW ranking -- I am confident that SMU's Cox would soon replace Chicago's Booth as the top school!!
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13 Nov 2010, 02:48
Hey, guys, we all can disagree on criteria but maybe something is going on in Cox.
It seems Bloomberg BW is not the only one.
http://www.cox.smu.edu/web/guest/rankings-and-acclaim
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